Starve the Ego Feed the Soul
Starve the Ego Feed the Soul
Transforming Relationships: Overcoming Anxious Attachment with Sabrina Zohar
Use code BEHEALED here https://signalrelief.com/ and here https://meetjovi.com/
If you want to donate to help me head out to Boston to see yet another surgeon on this insane healthcare journey go to the GoFundMe here https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-nico-barraza-soar-after-five-surgeries
Sabrina Zohar joins us to discuss the critical role of accountability in relationships and the nuances of effective communication. We explore how self-awareness can positively transform dating experiences, stressing the importance of meaningful apologies and how to maintain healthy relationships amidst challenges.
• Navigating the concept of accountability in relationships
• Understanding the difference between hurtful and harmful communication
• The significance of self-awareness and personal growth in partnerships
• Reflecting on the nature of apologies and their importance in healing
• The feasibility of remaining friends with ex-partners based on mutual respect
• Confronting societal norms around communication and discomfort in relationships
To connect with Sabrina and her podcast go here https://www.sabrinazohar.com/
Her Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesabrinazoharshow/
Warmly,
Nico Barraza
@FeedTheSoulNB
www.nicobarraza.com
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Speaker 1:Miss sabrina zohar on the show. Sabrina is an internet sort of personality. She's a dating coach. She has a podcast, the Sabrina Zohar Show. She's super well-known in the industry of self-help or relationships and, honestly, a really sharp woman. It was awesome to be able to talk to her for an hour. We go over a ton of different things, from dating dynamics to personal accountability to victimization of oneself and how we live in a victim mindset and victim culture. Now it's sort of been spread throughout our societies and we have just a really down to earth conversation. I really appreciate Sabrina's no bullshit take on dating and relationships and she goes into her own accountability and also her own relationship with her father that she had to deal with and also heal from and be honest about until that allowed her to actually get into a healthy, functional relationship herself. So I always appreciate people using their own personal experience and how they got into the work they do, based on their own self-realization and their own work in therapy or counseling or coaching. So, sabrina, thank you so much for coming on the show. Huge shout out to you. If you guys want to learn more about her, go to sabrinazoharcom or check out on Instagram or TikTok or social media. I'll throw all the links in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Also, if you're interested in supporting me, I'm still on this horrible, horrible journey, uh, with my shoulder. Unfortunately, the surgeon in Vail I just had my fifth shoulder surgery. Guys, Uh, the surgeon in Vail did not listen to me at all. Um, I really want the stuff to be removed that was put in in 2020 and 2022. I think it's really causing the biomechanical issues in my arm and my shoulder and it really is responsible for me not being able to be the athlete that I was and really just not being in chronic pain all the time. Unfortunately, there's a lot to this industry and I'll get into it in a future episode. I don't really want to bog down all these episodes with my chronic pain and my orthopedic surgery journey. I think there needs to be particular episodes on that specifically.
Speaker 1:But if you want to donate and try to help me get out to Boston to see one of the best shoulder surgeons in the country. I'm going to throw a GoFundMe in the description too. It means a lot to me if you can help support. I've spent pretty much all my life savings hundreds of thousands of dollars on top of insurance to try to heal myself in the past five years from the chronic condition I was put in by a surgeon in Flagstaff, dr Scott Gibson, who, mind you, I've recently found out that the company that he works for in Northern Arizona Healthcare, based out of Flagstaff, which is home to me, has been removing, or at least flagging, all the one-star reviews this guy's gotten, and so it looks like he's got a bunch of five-star reviews when tons of people had left him negative reviews, which is just ridiculous.
Speaker 1:But in any event, I'm still on this journey. I'm still living in chronic pain every day. It's really affecting my life and my happiness and my ability to thrive and be joyous and just honestly work and focus and be present. It's crazy when you're in this most dysfunction. I can't climb, I can't ski, I can't do the things I really love to do.
Speaker 1:Guys, I really want to get back to that, and I'm not. I know I'm not being completely unreasonable here. Like I know, my arm's never going to be the same, but what I've been asking for is that I want the stuff removed that was put in on the onset of my symptoms, and that makes logical sense to me, right? But yet these guys keep cutting my native anatomy up. I've had both my bicep tendons clipped, I've had my coracoid process removed, and people always ask me why would they be doing this? It doesn't seem logical and I completely agree. And then I looked into it and I'm like all these guys are sponsored by this company, arthrex. That's a multinational billion dollar implant and materials company for orthopedic surgeries, and so they don't want to remove it. And they're not saying this because they have to write it in the op report that they removed something that Arthroflex produced that was coincidentally giving a patient pain or problems, and I really think that's the reason. And so I'm still looking for a surgeon that's going to listen to my story, be compassionate and treat me as a human being and not as a statistic, not just spend 10 to 15 minutes in a room with me, actually give me the time of day, read through my reports, listen to what I'm saying and know my body well.
Speaker 1:I was a pro athlete for six, seven years. I was a division one athlete in college. I have a very intimate relationship with my body. I know it very well and I knew from the beginning of that first surgery in 2020 that this stuff had to be removed, that that was a really terrible surgery. There's a lot of mistakes made in it, just lack of skill, lack of compassion, lack of intellect, lack of understanding from that surgeon and I just I also want to make it a sort of a life goal of mine to raise more awareness around orthopedic surgery when it's necessary. When it isn't, don't forget this industry makes a ton of money. That's how they make money is cutting human bodies open.
Speaker 1:There are definitely times when orthopedic surgery is absolutely warranted and has improved people's lives, but there are countless times people have been put in chronic pain, they've been left off worse than when they came in, and they've been forgotten or pushed to another surgeon or punted off to someone else and had to basically just live with chronic pain, and people don't talk about how this affects someone's life. I don't see that any differently than committing a murder on the street as someone who's training to be a pilot. Now, if you're flying an aircraft and you make a mistake as a pilot and you cost people their lives, well, you're never going to fly an aircraft again. In fact, you're probably going to be going to jail.
Speaker 1:And for some reason, in medicine, in orthopedic surgery, when these folks take the Hippocratic oath that they're always going to make the best decisions in the best interest of the patients, whether the insurance is, you know, construed against them or not, you know they really should not be recommending surgeries. That should not be recommended. And this has happened time and time again, particularly to younger folks. I think when you get to a certain age and you're in a lot of chronic pain or 65, 70, some, you know it makes sense. All right, go try orthopedic surgery. Right, it might be for you, for a shoulder replacement, for a knee replacement, for hip replacement. But if you're younger unless you're in a very traumatic accident which I was in, an accident, but I wasn't, it wasn't like my arm was could have made it throughout and I was at 90 get surgery that first time by the surgeon in Flagstaff before flight school, because he was saying it was going to make it 95% to 99% and to me I'm a scientist I'm like all right, that makes sense to me, let's make it even better, let's get it back to normal. And I went to like 40% living in chronic pain since then.
Speaker 1:So, without going too far down that rabbit hole, if you want to donate and contribute, I'm going to throw a link to this GoFundMe. The GoFundMe says it's about flight school. I just don't want to change it. It really is just fun my ability to go see another surgeon in Boston Again. I've spent all my money. I'm in a good amount of medical debt now in the system, even though I did have insurance. I do have insurance. People don't understand, until you really go through something like this, where you have five surgeries in five years, how much money adds on, like the PT, the stuff you try outside of it, like different injections. I've done red light therapy, I've done everything you could think about stem cells, prp, whatever and really it's a biomechanical issue that's wrong with my arm because of the first surgery and the first second insert surgery. I would say there was just so many mistakes made. It's a horror story, to be honest, and I will make another.
Speaker 1:I'll record another solo episode to kind of update, you guys, where I'm at from. I'm about five and a half months removed from this fifth surgery that I had in Vail, colorado, at the Stedman Clinic, but again, I don't want to suck up all the energy from this show. This is about Sabrina Sohar and my conversation about relationships, about love, about accountability, and so I want to not be too long about that and, again, this is a great episode. Sabrina, thank you so much for coming on the show. I've always felt blessed to talk to all these folks that have come on this show and humbled me and brought their expertise and their knowledge and just their vulnerability Sharing this stuff online.
Speaker 1:I know we live in a culture now where it's normalized like people just overshare and they but really there's a lot of good folks out there really trying their best to be authentic and honest Well, not just trying to manipulate and make a quick buck. You know I'm the first to say that, like the self-help therapy, even, like you know, when you have a degree like a PsyD or an MS in clinical mental health counseling or an MFT, just because you have these degrees, it doesn't mean that people aren't trying to like, take advantage or take this opportunity to sort of prey on someone's trauma right, or someone's like you know, pain, especially in a relationship or a dysfunctional family relationship or some codependent thing or, like you know, all these other things. Like, human beings take advantage of others all the time, and so when I meet people like Sabrina, who are making a good living, doing the good work, really being honest about their own shit and acting as a model Guys anyone that's a therapist or a counselor or a coach, I'm the first to say to any of the clients that I've worked with is like I've been consistently trying to learn from my mistakes and someone that is going to continue to make mistakes but be honest about them and just try to be a better person and also be around people that are healthy for you too. That's one of the things we talk about in this episode and I also want to plug I keep forgetting to do this is that I work with individuals, couples and multitude of different family dynamics in one-on-one settings, all via Zoom or in person. Although I'm based in Arizona, I work with people all over the world, not just in the US. My website is wwwnicoberazacom. I have very affordable rates compared to most people and if you want to come work with me.
Speaker 1:I want to take more clients. I want to start to do this again. I'm really inspired to get back to this work. Honestly, it helps me take the focus off my own pain and my own struggles and help others, and it's just something that's always. I've been very good at. The results speak for themselves Anyone that's come work for me. If you talk to me, if you read reviews that people have written about me, they really do have results.
Speaker 1:And, as a caveat, if you come work with me, it's a no bullshit game.
Speaker 1:It's not somewhere where you know I will provide compassion, I will hold space for you, but I will definitely call you out on what's going on and you know especially if you're you know the person that's 99% of the time bringing it upon yourself whether being unfair to someone, treating someone unfairly, or you know making excuses for not exiting a situation that's unhealthy for you, that you've been trying as much as possible to get better but it's not changing because someone else isn't changing or they're not meeting you or you need to be met.
Speaker 1:So go to wwwnicobrasacom if you want to work with me, and without further ado, because that was a much longer intro than I thought it was going to be. Let's get to the episode with Miss Sabrina Zohar. Sabrina, thank you so much for joining me on Star of the Ego, feed the Soul. I'm so glad we finally got schedules aligned and I'm a big fan, obviously, of your work and we were connected through social media of all things. Like most people that join this show, I end up following them on social media. I'm like I like what they're saying, I want to have them on the show and have a conversation. So first of all, thank you for sitting down with me.
Speaker 2:Of course. Thanks, Nico. I'm so excited. I'm bummed we couldn't do this in person when you were here, but hey.
Speaker 1:I know, dude, I just missed you in San Diego. It's crazy, because I literally just learned about you, probably in the month I was transitioning out. And yeah, we'll definitely get that coffee in person at some point for sure. Fuck yeah. So, fuck yeah. Also, I really like how you cuss a lot, it's you know, you do this a lot and I'm like all right, this, this gal, she's not no holds barred here. So I just want to start off with, if someone doesn't know you, which you've amassed a very large following with your podcast and on your personal page on Instagram. You're doing a lot of great work. How did you get into the work you're doing and give me just a little bit brief, bit brief, synopsis of where you come from, your background.
Speaker 2:Totally so. Yes, I'm Sabrina Zohar dating coach, relationship coach, all that fun shit but really, who am I is? I am a girl that was the problem and then realized that I needed help, and I was born and raised in Florida, moved to New York when I was 19, which is why, like I say, I grew up in New York but I became this in New York who speaks fast and curses a lot, and just after, you know, I did 12 years there and I was just tired of it and I was just the epitome of anxious attachment and going into my patterns. I was dating the same type of people. I was constantly just like doing the same thing, just wondering why I wasn't getting different results and that's a nice way to say trauma.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't until I pretty much married my father, Like I was with a guy that was the exact version of him and that was my rock bottom. I was like I've been running away from this my whole life and I ended up being with this person and so we. That was it. I was just done and I started therapy and that was 2018. And so that was just like the start of my journey At this time 2018. And so that was just like the start of my journey. At this time, I owned a clothing line called Software. Like I was a business owner, I was an entrepreneur, I worked in fashion and I started doing like podcasts and panels you know, like that world and just realizing like I have something to say, but nah, nobody cares about me. You know who am I, that limiting belief coming in and so left New York in 2021, did the COVID thing that was fun and moved out to California, living in LA. I was single as fuck and I was so miserable.
Speaker 1:You can't get any more single than single as fuck.
Speaker 2:No, you can't. I mean it's just like miserable as fuck. Is the one that comes next? But especially in LA, like when you are craving like as a New Yorker, craving that connection, craving community, craving conversation, and then being met with people that really just don't know how to do. That is jarring. And I was listening to all this clickbait on the internet and I was like why isn't my dating experience better? But all the while really diving into therapy and understanding myself and saying, wait a minute, I don't know how to set a boundary, I don't know how to say no, I'm scared I'm going to lose somebody because I'm too much right. All of those things Fast forward 2022, I am on set for Shark Tank.
Speaker 2:It's like July of 2022. I've been seven months of prep. I thought this was going to save my business. This is going to be it. This is the moment. And after 12 hours on set, they sent me home saying sorry, couldn't fit you in today, try again later.
Speaker 2:And I was like a shell of a human and just kind of crashed down, and I remember that at this time I had like gone on one date with this guy and I was listening to all of the clickbait of like if they don't contact you, if they don't do this, they have to be your person. And I'll never forget. He called me out of nowhere. Just must have had a spidey sense. He wanted to see how I was doing and he talked me off a very dark ledge and I never spoke to that guy again. But that was the first time I realized like, wait a minute, just because you have an experience doesn't mean that this has to be anything more. Some people really do enter your life for a beautiful reason and that reason sometimes could be something as minute as this. That saved my life in a moment that I didn't know who to talk to. And I then started, like maybe a month later, started dating a guy, started really becoming more self-aware, started to implement that, realized he couldn't. Started TikTok. I said what do I have to lose? I'll start creating some content where it talks about the struggles and what I'm dealing with.
Speaker 2:Fast forward a month later my dog passes away. I break up with this guy. I'm at rock bottom. I have nothing left and I am a shell of a human. I was like, okay, but in those moments that's when I really believe, like when you get pushed to that point. That's where the magic and like a Phoenix rises, you can kind of rebuild the life that you'd like. And two days it was like two days after I broke up with the guy, I was like I'm done.
Speaker 2:I ended up coming out to San Diego seeing my sister, meeting my now partner, and just kind of realizing, like wait a minute, the things I've been taught are not the things that are actually happening. Right, if a guy doesn't text you every day, isn't like you. Oh, my partner didn't text me every day, but we had a really great relationship, right. Just all of these norms. That's when I started to create content that was a little different, talking a little differently. That's when things started to go viral. That's when I started the pocket like it. Just everything mushroomed in and of itself. And then here we are today. It's me.
Speaker 1:Here we are. So one thing I really need to get one of those mic covers that you have. That's fucking sweet, um, and so I have two parts of what you said. So the first part is you mentioned, like this, this, this sort of disparity between New York and LA, and it's interesting you bring up those two cities right. Cause New York, when I see it, as I speak very fast, which is interesting, cause I grew up in Arizona but I've always spoken fast. My brain is always rattling, you know, and so I've had to slow it down when I've learned to podcast, but I still. It's interesting because when you speak fast, I'm like, oh, I can understand this person because I'm on that same wavelength of just like you know up there.
Speaker 1:So New York, you mentioned, like creating connections, and then you come to LA and you said it was. It seemed like it was harder to create connections, but most people view New York as being this like colder sort of head down, you know, ear pods in bustling through the city. Do you feel like that was? Because in LA there's a sense of facade and a sense of like acting that goes on. Is that like the differentiator or like how did you differ? Like where was that from?
Speaker 2:I think the differentiation for me is in New York, absolutely Like. Is New York one of the loneliest cities in the world? Absolutely, you're surrounded by people, but you're alone a lot. But the beautiful thing about New York is I could go to a workout class. Just look over to me, start talking to someone. Next thing I know we're grabbing a coffee down the street. We're friends now.
Speaker 2:Oh, she invited me to a birthday dinner People were open to open and receptive, and people in New York crave authenticity. So being yourself, being the big personality, being the girl that talks fast, is welcomed there. I could let my freak flag fly, whereas I go to LA and it's whoa, wow, you like speak like, really like fast and like wait, like, but I like maybe, and it's just. It was infuriating and I felt like I didn't belong, like dating was really tough. You know you're going out and you're like wow, yeah, here's a crazy thing, my forehead moves. So, yeah, I'm a little different than the girls here. Like I make facial expressions or I will show interest, like I'm not playing a game, and it's just.
Speaker 2:I started to notice that how many of my friends the second I left LA, all of a sudden I look and I'm like you unfollowed me. I thought we, I just had dinner with you. It was just a different mentality and I think New York is where you go to do. La is where you go to dream, and I think that was really jarring for me, because in New York you can't live in New York if you aren't thick enough and you don't have the skin to make it in New York, you'll last a year or two and you're out. I lasted 12 and I could have kept going.
Speaker 2:I just hated winter LA. You could do that for a long time because you can fake, you could do, and I just find that people are really. They're just a lot. They're lacking a lot of depth and this isn't to everybody. Like I don't mean to poo-poo the entire city. There's some amazing people but on the aggregate we have to think about what are the people that LA attracts? And it's like what are you coming there for? It just wasn't my people.
Speaker 1:I hear you on that. You get sort of like rewarded for acting in LA, which is, you know, coincidence, because it's like Hollywood acting right. But it's really just like the entirety of a lot of different culminations, of becoming a YouTube influencer, social media personality, all these things. A lot of times, you never really know if that person is who they are online, and it's one thing I appreciate about you is because I knew immediately when I started to watch your content this is an authentic human being who's done a fair share of work. You can really tell when you brought up self-awareness. It's like no-transcript 2018, went to therapy for the first time. When did you start to notice your self-awareness improving and how did you realize that? Because a lot of people they want to be more self-awareness improving and like how did you? How did you realize that? Because a lot of people like, want, they want to be more self-aware, but it's hard to give them a metric to be like oh, you're actually doing it now, versus you're just bullshitting yourself.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent, and it's also thank you for sharing as well earlier that like you're a fast talker and everything Cause it feels. The beautiful thing about having this like personality right, if you're just like I, talk fast and I don't want to have to limit myself is that there are people like me and you that appreciate it. There are other people like that, so if it doesn't work for those next, anyways that's my soapbox do you find yourself having to slow down for other people?
Speaker 2:uh no, I find myself having to set boundaries. I get it every day of like I'd listen to your podcast, but like you talk fast, and my response like you sound like you're reprimanding me, like my mom, and my response usually is like hey, your discomfort with my speech means that I don't have to own that because you not liking how I speak, means you get to make a free decision to not listen. But that doesn't mean I need to change how I am to make you more comfortable, cause that's not how the fucking world works.
Speaker 2:So that's that yeah these are people that have never lived in New York, okay, so anyways, when we talk about that. So I think what really the interesting thing is, I was in therapy while I was with my toxic ex and I'm the first to say narcissist, or that word is way too over you Lee used, he actually very much was one, and I was because he was like my father hello, and I was because he was like my father hello and I was so unhealthy, so it's not all his fault. Like no, no, no, I played a part in this dynamic. Trust me on that. But I was in therapy while we were together and it was a lot of coddling and it was a lot of you know, sabrina, you're being like unrealistic and I just I didn't resonate. It wasn't until when he broke up with me, he left and I'll be honest, I didn't, I wasn't strong, I didn't leave. Now he fucking dumped me and left me and left for two weeks on a vacation. I'll never forget my mom saying he's going to regret what the decision he made. And I said which one? She said that he asked you to go to therapy and she was like, cause you're going to see who he really is. And I didn't see that at the time. I was. I'll say it, I was suicidal. I was 20 pounds lighter than I am, which is really scary for me because I'm 5'8", so I'm like a taller girl. So me being 100 pounds is really not okay. I would cry into a bowl of food. I didn't eat for almost two weeks. I was not okay and I started therapy and I mean it was on loop. I just constantly everything's my fault, everything's my fault, everything's my fault.
Speaker 2:The minute, truly the turning point was if, for anyone who's not familiar, I was doing something called tapping. I love tapping it. Just, you know, you hit those areas of your body that help to regulate your nervous system while you're having really hard thoughts. And we were tapping and it was. I said I'm such a piece of shit, everything's my fault. And she repeated it to me and she said you're such a piece of shit, everything's your fault. That was the goal was for her to hear, so I could hear what I was saying and I stopped and that was the first time I said well, not everything could be my fault.
Speaker 2:No-transcript still work for me. And I was going to help him out with some stuff because he couldn't afford it. Blah, blah, blah. And he said something, and it was not anything he hadn't said to me before, but he said. I said something of like you know, oh, you're wearing like the software t-shirt. You could pitch that. It's a good shirt for this. And he said a rude comment. Then he looked at me and he goes when will you understand? You're the fucking idiot who's never going to make this company anything because you're the problem and like that's how, what are you doing? And I looked at him and I said get out today. And that was it. I filed for divorce a month later. That was it, it was done. We never spoke again.
Speaker 2:But, it was in that moment that I made a decision that I don't normally make. That's when I realized holy shit, I'm becoming more self-aware, I'm making progress. I, for the first time, allowed myself to say what he said was inappropriate.
Speaker 1:That's not okay and that I had never done and I had never been aware of that up until that point. Yeah, totally. It's interesting because I feel like when some people get to that point of saying such hurtful shit and I know I've honestly been there it's like I think it can go two ways. Like one, that person is just always doing that. Or two, that person's built up so much resentment where again, the onus is still on them because it's coming out of their mouth, but they're just so resentful that this shit is just going to start flying because they don't have any sort of governor anymore.
Speaker 1:They've used it all up, right, in your specific relationship, because you bring up the term narcissism, right, most of the time or, sorry, all the time, if you're a true narcissist, you have zero empathy, right.
Speaker 1:You can't really understand that, and so anytime that I've, for instance, said something that's hurtful or done something that's hurtful, I've always looked back and be like no, I shouldn't have said that. That was really wrong. You know and own it. And especially as you build up more self-awareness, you are able to see those times more quickly. So you don't have to wait too big, so you can wait like an hour and be like, wait a minute, like I was angry. Sure, anger is not the problem, it's how I allowed it to manifest externally, versus communicating it. And if it wasn't listened to, then just leaving the situation or saying like I don't need to be around this person anymore because they keep triggering, right? So in your specific relationship, did this person just have no empathy for the things he was saying? So that's why you're using the term narcissism, because really it's a lack of complete care.
Speaker 2:Complete. I mean, he was like anybody you meet is like oh, you didn't know, like it's that obvious that when you talk to him To give you the perspective. My brother-in-law owns a gym in Brooklyn and my ex was a member and during COVID, obviously it closed and they opened. The day that New York allowed everything to open, they opened it. I had been broken up with my ex for over a year. At this point he messaged my brother-in-law, who he hadn't spoken to in over a year, to let him know hey, I think it's inappropriate of you to open your gym back up because I don't feel safe there with my health. I think you're being inappropriate. You should stay closed.
Speaker 1:Just don't go.
Speaker 2:And my brother-in-law is looking and he's like I'm sorry, Let me talk to the you know what. Let me talk to my bills then, and let them know that you don't think. That's that level of narcissism I was dealing with, where he really believed he's the only person. That's right. So when he would say hurtful things, no empathy he didn't give a shit. He almost hit me that day. To this day, I'm the crazy one. I'm the one that hurt him A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:It's very much like you can tell because all the focus is on that person and the reason I'm being clear about this is because we get that, like you said, that term is used so much by non-clinical folks all the time. Right, it's like someone hurts me or I go through a breakup or divorce immediately. My ex is a narcissist and they're this and that. I'm like. I just want to caution everyone. We have to be very careful with that word. It's just like codependency. Those are words because there are clinical terms and definitions. And narcissism, people have to meet seven out of 10 sort of key traits and usually it has to be diagnosed by multiple therapists because people can get it wrong and usually you don't find narcissists in therapy. It's quite rare. Usually they go to therapy when they're trying to get a gotcha to someone else or keep someone else close, right, and so there's a lot of these dynamics at play and I'm bringing this up because there are so many people like I had just had the conversation it was on threads by this, this pro climber who follows me and she was like I actually was a narcissist and she and so we kind of got in this conversation and one of the things that brought up. She's like I had I have. She's like I have nothing to. That's what a narcissist would say. So you know, and I'm just like this is the problem, because sometimes you can get people that are actually have like very high narcissistic prevalency or tendencies, saying shit, that they dated a narcissist. In actuality, they might be the narcissist, right, and yeah, and so that's why it's like I'm always very hesitant when I like use that term now, because I don't want to give someone any sort of ammunition or gunpowder to hurt someone else with that. Right now there's, there's a space for it to diagnose clinically when you've seen it, when you know what it is Right. But then we have a lot of people you know saying like all right, just because someone hurt me, they must be a narcissist. And I'm like people do fucked up things Also doesn't really mean that someone's bad because they hurt you, it just depends.
Speaker 1:There's so much context that we're missing there and it's interesting because I feel like this sort of gets into the self-awareness talk that we started on. It's like you can still honor your pain and feel like, yes, I was a victim in these moments, but also try to understand when you were an oppressor and when you hurt someone in a relationship Because, ultimately, what is done to you, the only control you have to, that is whether you're in or you're out of the relationship. Right, you can't control another human being, nor should you want to. So if it's not a good match, that's when you have to leave right. What you can control is what you're doing right, how you're seeing yourself, how you're behaving, and that's where that self-awareness comes in. It's like all right at the end of the day, when you heal to a point where you're like this person no longer has like a grip over me, because the kind of the love has turned from being in love to just I love them, I wish them the best, whatever you want to say, you know, but it's, you're not in a relationship with them, then you can focus in the mirror of like okay, I be better to one track someone different that's maybe more compatible with me, be a healthier partner so I can be with a healthier partner.
Speaker 1:And one of the interesting indicators for me, when I see if someone's got it or not, are they still completely just blaming their ex for everything. I'm like, look, this person might completely have been this shitty person, but then also it's like all right, what does that say about us in the moment? Why did we attract that behavior? What were we mirroring, right? How are we meeting that behavior? How are we accepting it? How are we sort of matching it in other ways?
Speaker 1:Because there's like the in-your-face vulgarity scream, yell, physical violence, and then there's this shut off, cold, turn my heart off, hold everything back, so that person feels like they aren't loved anymore, and there's these interesting sort of polarities. But oftentimes the one that's really aggressive or mean gets called out and the other one that's like completely stone cold, like cut someone out of their life doesn't because it's it's. It's like seems like it's more benign, but it's really not. It's just, it's hurtful, it's just manifesting in different ways the fight or flight thing, right? Um? So yeah, for once, like thanks for thanks for sharing that about your relationship, cause I know I mean you're way out of it and obviously it's shaped who you are, but I don't think it's ever easy to talk about like who we were, maybe something we're not proud of, but it's, it's how we got to where we are today. Right, it's who made you who you are.
Speaker 2:Dude, I'll never be more grateful for what I went through. I will never be more grateful for that experience. I turned into a shell of a human so I could find myself again. I was equally. That I was equally. That's the thing. I had one girl say you know, you're blaming people, and I was like there's a difference between blame and accountability. There was a very big difference, because blame is like oh, it's all your fault. No, my part in this is I allowed it. Right, I had insecurities, I had low self-esteem. He was just like the person I knew growing up, so I went for it. That's me taking ownership of my partner. He has his, I have mine, and that's how this dynamic happened.
Speaker 2:But I appreciate the clarification on narcissism because, as somebody who is the child of like, the only reason my father went to therapy with my mother was because that's the only way you could get a divorce. In Florida. I didn't know that, but back in the early thousands you had to go to like two or three therapy sessions before filing for divorce. Cool, and the only reason we knew this was the first time I ever heard the word was because my mom and as my dad was walking out, he went out first and the therapist grabbed my mom and she said by the way, I'll be signing the paperwork for you early.
Speaker 2:And my mom said but we have two more sessions. And she said this is a narcissist, you need to run. And she was like there is nothing else that you could do here. It says textbook and for me I get really upset when people misuse the terminology because it takes away from the actual people that experienced this, the actual ones that were gaslit and manipulated and put down. It's like the avoidant, right, oh, this guy's avoidant. It's like no, that person's just not into you. Stop diagnosing them.
Speaker 1:Right. It's like when someone uses the term abuse too. You know, I think we've also sort of normalized that and it's touchy because it's like, well, if someone considers they're being abused, then they can, they should be able to define it. It's abuse. But if we look at, like, you know, there are women that like, suffer abuse, there are men that suffer abuse, and then there are people that are just pissed off and hurt and they're like, well, my partner is abusive or you're being abusive. I'm like, wait a minute, we have to have some sort of a clear line, right, like, what is abuse? It's continued behavior over time. You know, it's like literally going to exist whether what you're doing changes or not essentially. So a lot of times people sort of associate abuse with someone being super resentful and then becoming like you know this version that you didn't fall in love with. But then oftentimes the self-awareness is like, okay, what am I doing that's continuously hurting this person and maybe they're asking me to stop doing it, and then all of a sudden, like, no wonder their behavior is like that, right, and so I think that there's this.
Speaker 1:That's the work that we do in therapy and in counseling is like to be able to read between the lines. You know, like our, our sort of accusations or premonitions of our of our like sort of current, like perception of our reality and our relationship. Is it real? Is there some bias there? More often than not, 99% of the time, there is going to be some sort of bias, because it's impossible for us to see everything from someone else's perspective, right, the more empathy we have, the better we get at that. But, like I'm going to have bias, you're going to have bias, we all are right.
Speaker 1:And the tough thing is, I feel like and I don't want to make this conversation all about narcissism but when you sort of experience narcissism in the NPD narcissistic personality disorder meaning you're actually clinically showcasing symptoms of it right, this person will never reach a capacity of awareness.
Speaker 1:It's literally, unfortunately impossible for their brain to do that Right. However, when we go to like our societal lens and we look at how that person a narcissist they just might be selfish or they might be like distributing or sorry, distributing, that's not the word but like showcasing symptoms of narcissism in that moment. But they're not a narcissist because they can feel bad, they can apologize, but they can own stuff and I think like in that I think we just need to have more education on the differences between those things. And again, just because we feel someone's a narcissist doesn't mean they are. We have to think about it Because also, if we turn the lens back on ourselves, we could also be acting narcissistically pretty quick, right, there's a very quick line there that we switch, especially when we are hurt, angry, when we feel like we're suffering, when we're sort of exhausted, when we're depressed, when we're anxious, all these other things that peak those little traumas, right.
Speaker 2:So no, I was just gonna say, and you can like, you can fucking tell, like when I watch, I was watching the show mama's boy and seeing this one mom and you're like, oh no, that's what a narcissistic mother looks like Right, Like that's it's very. You meet my father within two seconds of talking to him. You're just like yeah, got it Right, Like it's just the grandiosity, it's the comparison.
Speaker 2:It's it's just. There's so much to it. I remember one person called me a narcissist and I said why? What made you think that? And they said well, you talk about yourself. And I was like, oh my God, I was like how else am I going to share this?
Speaker 2:So I think it is detrimental and the reason I also hate. It's the same with any terminology, right? We don't have to just stick on narcissism. We can expand and evolve Any. I'm this, right, I'm anxious, I'm avoidant, I'm this, they're this.
Speaker 2:When you say this person's a narcissist, that's very fixed, because, to your point, you're not really going to find. My father's response is your bad children. Your mother was a bad wife. I didn't do anything. Why would I go to? What is therapy? You're a fucking idiot. What are you doing? Why are you telling people your business? That is classic, right, very textbook. And with that type of personality, you're not going to change that person. So what you're also doing when you diagnose oh, that person was this you're also not allowing them to grow, evolve and change, if they may actually have the capabilities to do so. And it's, I think, what I see this more in the dating landscape like yes, I hear that word get thrown a lot. The avoidant and the anxious is the words I hear all the time of like, they're avoidant, they're this, and it's like here's my problem with this one.
Speaker 2:We are not very good at self-diagnosis. I can't. I'd be curious to hear from you how many people you hear say that they're secure and you're like, oh, that's not what that means. But we're not very good at self-diagnosis because we're not very self-aware. A lot of people so to be able to stop and say what they are. But we're also my my qualms with it are. So you know so much about this person to be able to diagnose them, but yet you have no understanding about how it makes you feel in your body or what's coming up for you. So we have no.
Speaker 2:And I get these whole paragraphs and at the end it says what do I do? And it's like so you know enough about them, but yet there's nothing about what it is that you want or need. How would you feel? How do you act Right? And I think there's this. That's, I think my biggest qualm with the dating world right now is it's such a over stimulation on what other people are going through, but yet not enough in understanding about what's happening within me. And how am I showing up? Because, to your point, this person's doing all these things, but how am I impacting them with my behavior is a really important question to ask, because if someone's acting out, I can't help but wonder like am I also facilitating in this?
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, absolutely. Facilitating in this? Right yeah, absolutely, and I think you know to. To add onto that point, when you go on dating apps and you see what people are writing, a lot of my clients will come in and I'll help them write what they're writing or go through a couple so we can talk about things. Right, one of the commonalities now is like someone, cause people there's all this like therapy lingo out there on the internet Right, it's really easy to see, like to have someone use like red flags and self-aware and emotional intelligence and all these other keywords, right, but oftentimes someone's profile will focus on what they're looking for literally 99 and and talk little about what they're offering or what they're coming from, and for me it's like that is sort of the trait towards narcissism in society, towards a more narcissistic society, because it's all about like me, me, me, me.
Speaker 1:How can I benefit? What do I want, what do I need? Right, wonderful, half of it should be about that, half of it should be about what the fuck you're offering, because it's really easy to say I want a million bucks and not do shit for it Right, and there are some people that are born into that and that entitlement, right. But we would grow up in this fucking thing, like this world now, where it's like, well, because I want something, I don't have to give to get it. And I'm like, if you want all those things out of a partner, out of a lover, out of a spouse, you need to be at that level to meet those calls, and if you're not, don't ask for it.
Speaker 2:Honestly, who taught us? I'd be curious where, if maybe along the world, you saw this, because I'm with you. First of all, it's the number one issue I see. So I couldn't agree more. But I think this fallacy that like it should just be easy I don't owe anybody anything, why should I? It goes back to the ghosting thing that we were going to talk about. It's almost jarring to me because I'm like I'm sorry. Who taught you that this should just work? It's just easy. It just there is nothing.
Speaker 2:But yet everything else in life, right, and I hear that, like I did a video, that the ghosting video. It went mega viral. Oh, yay, okay, cool. But the problem with that is you get another side of the internet. You get the other side of the people that you're like. Oh, you're the other, you're the people I've been avoiding for a long time and I got so much of like it, it's easier to ghost. I'd rather ghost, I don't want to do this and it's like I. All I say is like, good luck having a relationship. Then you just let me know you're not ready for one, because if you think the shit's easy, it's not that it's hard, but it's not easy. It's like an owner running a business.
Speaker 2:It's not hard for me to run my business, that's not a chip day, it's presented with something, and so I was curious also to see for you, like I don't know personally exactly where along the lines in the last 10 years that this just became this like I'm going to say a word that might be harsh, but like this snowflake mentality of like, god forbid, I don't want to be no rejection. I have to have exact certainty. I have to know you like me, ahead of time. I can't, god forbid, you tell me that you don't want to go out with me. It's the end of the world and it's this fragile shatter that, like anything, is going to break me, but yet it's like. But yet you keep getting hurt over and over. So you are proving to yourself that you can make it through. You are really strong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it comes from a handful of areas, but I think one of the things is like cancel culture. We live in a very victim rich society, meaning, like you are uh, you are incentivized to be a victim, right, just raise your hand If something has been done bad to you. All of a sudden, you can sort of sort of pass over the things that you've done that are fucked up and just like, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute Like I've been hurt, so let's focus on that, right, and I'm like yes, I have been hurt, but also I've caused pain. Let me look at that, because that's what I need to improve in order to be a better human being and be a better partner. If I can get to that level, I will attract better partners, and if I do not, then I'll be able to realize it sooner and say no, thank you, this is not for me. Before I get into a relationship with someone that is going to ruin my peace or is going to cause more suffering than they are thriving, and I think that it's just our culture. Literally, we live in a very entitled, victim-rich, selfish culture nowadays, and we've gone in and out throughout the history of humanity. I think that there's and I don't want to be super negative because I do feel like it's going to come around but I feel like we have to have a rectification with how we use social media, with how we engage with the internet Because, for instance, I was just walking around the University of Arizona campus when I was studying this was like two days ago, I was studying for ground school for flying, and it was like 6 pm on a what is it, was it Tuesday or Wednesday?
Speaker 1:Walk out of the coffee shop and there's a bunch of students right, probably kids from 17 to 23,. You know mostly Literally 90% of the people walking. If they were in groups or whatever, whether they were wearing freaking Uggs and sweatpants which is the majority of women at schools these days or where they were wearing some hipster gear, they were looking at their phone, looking at their phone, their screens on, and I'm saying like 95% of like, there's like 50 people. I just do a scan right as I'm walking towards my car and the parking structure. And it's not to cut up on this generation, because this is what they were given when they were young, right, it's like I didn't get a cell phone until I was well, a smartphone until I was 21. I didn't get a cell phone until I was like 14 or 15 in high school and I'm probably even 16, actually right but that's because it wasn't available either, not because it wasn't offered to me. And so, again, this isn't a judgmental thing.
Speaker 1:I just immediately thought to myself I'm like man, this is fucked. Like aren't even engaging, right. Like aren't even engaging, aren't even really looking at each other when they're talking. They're looking at their phone and talking to each other, right, or they'll take a glance and look down. They're responding to Snapchat or TikTok or Instagram. I'm like man, we are also contributing to that, like I'm contributing to that with my content.
Speaker 1:And I was like, how can we sort of wake up from this?
Speaker 1:You know, we, a lot of us use the term wake up, like wake up, wake up, and it's like we actually need to do that at some point, you know, because this is really creating this, and I mean by this isn't like the phone, like it's literally creating the systemic addiction to disconnection, right, and I mean when we talk about how to have a relationship, like actual relationship, like be in someone's presence and deal with their shit and your shit and be able to dance together and have goals and have your separate lives but then have one together.
Speaker 1:Like this does not help you build that right. You have to really be mindful of the relationship with technology, and a lot of times I would argue that this is actually causing fissures and cracks in relationships. Because in Instagram there's a booty every two seconds nowadays, right, there's a fresh set of eight pack abs on everything, and so there's always an option to like go up a notch where it's like oh, this person has more self-awareness, so this person's more handsome or cuter or whatever. Right, it's like we're monogamous, we're in a monogamous relationship. This probably does more bad than it does good, unless we have enough self-regulation, which comes from self-awareness, to be like this is the person I love. I need to focus on them and myself. This is merely a tool for work or whatever communication, but a lot of times I think this thing is getting in the way of a lot of loving relationships.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's fucking things up. It's a dopamine reward system all day. It's just a drip out. I mean texting. That was like. What put me on the map with my content was when I started speaking out of like you don't need to text somebody every single fucking day, when you just start dating them, like you don't know who these people are, you're becoming and hi, I was her. That's why I'm not judging anybody I used to have. I used to break up with guys if they didn't send me a good morning text. Like it was pathetic on my end, not anybody else's, but I agree, I think what's wild is.
Speaker 2:I remember there was a Bumble ad or it was like one of those fucking dating app ads and it was a party. I was so upset. It was a house party and apparently at a house party there was a DJ. At whatever house party this person was at and the guy's DJing and the girl looks over and she likes the DJ, she thinks he's cute. Mind you, at this party it was very clear she could have just gone and went up and talked to him and instead she goes on Bumble, she swipes on him, looks over, puts her phone down, keeps talking, and I was like are you fucking with me right now? So you're promoting? Oh no, don't go up and talk to this person, you don't need to get rejected in person, just have a digital relationship with them, when the opportunity to go up and speak to this person is right there.
Speaker 2:And what I think we see is like TikTok university has really come in and taught a lot of bad shit, right, anybody can. The pendulum has swung from the good. Wow, there's so many amazing things. Look how much I can learn, look at the opportunities. But then that's the problem. Everyone has a voice, everyone has an opinion, everyone has an asshole, right? So everybody has the opportunity to share their shit, and I think we have to be better buyers, right? Like to your point, I'm a human. I have a partner. There are plenty of times where you're like, well, that person's really attractive and it's like, yeah, the old version of me would be like ooh, trauma, go for it. But instead you're like, no, be like ooh, trauma, go for it. But instead you're like, no, I've been there, I've done that. I like the person I'm with. I love the person I'm with. This makes me fulfilled and happy.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to have everything on the world Right, Right, You're okay, and I think a hundred percent the disconnect between connection Right and I think too. What I really see a lot I'm curious your thoughts is a lot of attachment, not a lot of connection, A lot of I need you, not a lot of I want you, and that is it's such a scary and dangerous place to be because the need is telling you and your body and your nervous system that you're not going to be okay without this person. The want is I like this, but I'm good without, good with good without, and that, I think, is such an important aspect here when we're talking about intentional dating. Right Is understanding my nervous system, understanding what my sensations are, understanding my triggers, understanding what sets me off, understanding how my brain works, knowing who I am, knowing what I need, not just what I want To me. It's such a missed opportunity because we're so focused on are they choosing me? But yet we have never stopped to ask do I also choose them?
Speaker 1:and myself for that matter, right, yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that there's another choice there. Do I choose their situation? Right? Because I think you can have a lot of compatibility with a person, but, for instance, if they have a deal breaker like, let's say, they have kids, if you don't want kids or you want your own kids, right, that can be a very big deal breaker and that can often be really heartbreaking, because you might want to be with this person very bad, but their situation is just not right for you.
Speaker 1:Timing might be another one, right, and so I think this kind of like overlaps into the next question I wanted to ask you, which is, like you know, we always ask or not always, but a lot of us are asking for truth, right, we're asking for honesty. I try not to speak in absolutes. I'm very careful of that because when I do that on the internet, it's like I'll give someone a freaking free pass to be an asshole. So if we're asking for honesty and you know we want healthy communication you talk about this a lot where it's like you know there's ghosting is not healthy communication. Literally, you can. It's easier to be like hey, you know, I had a great couple of dates with you, but I'm not interested. You don't have to say why.
Speaker 1:If they ask, then you can give them honesty and truth if they ask, right. But here's the thing If they ask, you give them honesty and truth, and then that person gets angry because of your honesty and truth that they asked for. This is what I want to talk about, right? It's that a lot of times we'll be like you know, why don't you want to be with me? And let's say, well, it's because of this. And that person will fucking get super mean and angry or they'll get hurt and they'll victimize themselves. Be like this is really hurtful. I'm like you asked this person for honesty and now it's you that can't handle the honesty you asked for.
Speaker 2:It kind of reminds me of like you get a participation award, like what we were talking about earlier, of like no, no, you don't get a participation award, no, you didn't do a good job, you fucked this up, which means you don't get anything. And I think really, what I hear and see when I see that is well, a couple of things. One, I think, what we've been talking about in like a very succinct way of being able to put this in a package is like we're saying go from black and white thinking to start to create some states, like some colors of gray right, Because black and white thinking is very all this or this, good or bad, yes or no, it's either this or it's this, right. And that polarity of especially because the polarities are usually quite high, right, it's like the pendulum swings versus shades of gray, of like it could be, but it could also be this right. So that's just kind of one aspect here is like when I see that are like I want honesty, I want this. What I hear is what my mama always used to tell me was be careful what you wish for, because when you get it, what are you going to do with it? Are you ready for it and that that bitch was right, because we want the honesty, we want it and we think. But then what happens is something about that triggers us. We end up going prefrontal cortex shuts off, we're back in the amygdala, we're back in that limbic part of our brain. That's just like fuck this person. Rejection attack.
Speaker 2:You don't like me. For me, personally, I don't know about you. When I dated, I never asked people the why. I would ask, like, was there something specific that prompted this, especially when it was like left field? And but I didn't really. Because here's the reality your why doesn't have to be my why. Right, like Nico, hypothetically, you and I are dating and you come to me and say, zohar, you're fantastic, love it, all this, but you know what you? Just? You curse too much, you speak too fast, right, that doesn't work for me. I hear that and I'm like, oh my God, I have to change who I am. No, I don't Fuck that, this is who I am, right. So I think there's lot of people we have to remember.
Speaker 2:Who taught us how to communicate? Who taught us hey, use I statements, make sure that we to your point. You don't use the sweeping generalizations always, never, right, that's not fighting fair. We are only going based on what we were taught growing up, with our bullshit blueprint, right? What did our parents say? What did our parents do? How did my dad speak to my mom or my caregiver, my grandparents, right? Whoever it was? How did they interact with me? And I think we are.
Speaker 2:We're very much in the I want this, but I don't know how to attain it type of time where it's like I want the honesty and the communication, but I personally am terrified of it. So if I receive it, I'm not going to be able to handle it well, and I think the ghosting thing was the perfect example. Anytime I ever received that message, my response always was thank you so much for your honesty. How refreshing. I really appreciate this. Take care, right. Or like it was so good, whatever, some kind of variation of thank you for letting me know.
Speaker 2:I never got mad at them or angry for the people that do. What I would say to them is you are honest with someone, right? Like you said earlier, we can only control ourselves. I can't control how you're going to react if somebody reacts and doesn't respond and reacts in a way that you find the pinch doesn't match the ouch. You told them you don't want to see them anymore and all of a sudden, they're cursing you out left, right and center. I look at that as good. Thank you for showing me who you are, thank you for letting me know that you can't be an adult and have an honest conversation, and thank you for letting me know that this was the best goddamn decision I ever made. You don't owe them anything beyond. I don't want to see you again, but I find that we are so focused on how they're going to receive it.
Speaker 2:One girl commented, saying why would I ever say this to somebody? It would break my heart. And I said so. People have to, because you would be hurt by someone's honesty. You now think that everyone else is going to be. She said well, why would I say something hurtful? I said but maybe that's not hurtful to them? Right, we're stuck in this, but I don't like it, so I don't want to do it. I don't want to receive it. I don't have to be bothered. Give me my participation award Instead of looking at this, as I can keep my stride of the street clean and if this person doesn't like, articulate the same Hi, we're back. Okay, I'm just going to have to have you come from my headphones or from my laptop.
Speaker 1:You're good.
Speaker 2:Okay, cool, um, but yeah, no moral of that story just being, I think oftentimes we think that we want something right, like that's why I hate the terminology. If he wanted to, he would. It doesn't make any sense to me Like oh, so I. So if you want to be a millionaire, well, you must not want it bad enough. What? Well, if he wanted you, then he would change who this person is and all of a sudden go through all their core beliefs to be able to communicate with like an adult, and it's like well, it's not about want.
Speaker 2:I want a lot of things. I want to be able to do things with my partner that maybe I feel like there's a block because I have my own shit, so we have want. It's about do you have the bandwidth and the tools and, like you were saying earlier, can you show up as the partner that you so badly want to receive? Because if you keep getting emotionally unavailable people sorry baby it's time to turn the mirror on yourself and go. Oh, I think I might be emotionally unavailable then if I consistently go for people that are yeah, absolutely, I would even like.
Speaker 1:I guess my lens on it is um and I think I am hearing myself on your end now. I don't want to pick that up on the no same.
Speaker 2:All right, let me oh fuck, I can't change this. I have other headphones. Let me go grab them.
Speaker 1:I just have like wireless headphones.
Speaker 2:Let me text okay, let me just go grab them. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, sorry about that. Oh my god, technology and I'm fucking with goo settings sound perfect, output, sound Perfect.
Speaker 1:Output All right, testing. Can you hear me? I can hear you. No Out Input, input Okay. Uh-huh, that's why Input is this Okay, try again. Good, check, check One, check Two, check. Oh, what was that? Speaker? Superness beats Nico. Can you try again? Check one, check two. Check one, check two. I don't know, it's connected on here. Maybe maybe you do output on the uh on riverside, maybe it's out input. It could be output on riverside, sure, mike? No, fuck me. Check one, check two Me. Oh, there we go Better, there we go Okay.
Speaker 1:Sorry about that. It's all good. Okay, we're good to go. All right, let me know when you're good.
Speaker 2:Like it never happened.
Speaker 1:Cool, like it never happened. So my lens, my lens is like a compassionate one, right, and I think that this is what I think, because I really I do like the scenario you set up and I think, if you want to get better at self-awareness and build more self-knowledge, and you deliver honesty and truth, like someone's asking for, and then they respond in a hurt, aggressive or, let's say, they shut down and hide or cut communications because they asked for it, right, this is the perspective I want to teach my clients to take. It's like to have empathy and understand why they're doing that, based on their childhood or how they were raised, or trauma that they've experienced. Right. You don't have to accept that behavior, but I do want you to seek to understand it. I want you to seek to like where it's coming from, because then you can understand when you're doing something like that and how to apologize and own it Right, but know that you aren't responsible for how they're taking or responding to the truth that they're asking you for Right. If they try to make you feel bad for it, whatever, that's on them. How you. What you're responsible for is when you say it and how you say it, right. And so if someone asks you to say it, that's when okay, they asked me to say it, right, but how you say it does matter. Right Now, I can give someone my truth and it's going to hurt their feelings and I'm saying it like very egotistically or very aggressively. Or I can be like you know what? I love you very much, but I can't be with you and I don't want to be with you because of this, right, and and I think oftentimes this happens when we really do love someone. And this leads me back to the second point I want to make is that and this is cliche, but really it's very true Like you have two options on how to communicate.
Speaker 1:If you're ghosting someone, you're doing it because you're fearful of honesty or fearful of truth, right, if I say something that's honest and, let's say, it hurts someone's feelings because I don't want to be with them, but at least I'm being honest and I said it in a compassionate way, that it's actually out of love. That is out of love. As hard as it is to like, realize that that is out of love, because if you didn't love them, you would just keep hiding it, keep communicating fearfully because you didn't want to just, um, don't want to hurt somebody. No, no, no, no, no. It's like you have to do that, like if I love you enough, I have to be honest with you, otherwise I am prolonging the pain and therefore it's going to be a bigger cut right and it's going to cut deeper into your metaphorical heart, and I don't want to do that because I love you. So it's time to do it now, because I know now, as soon as you know you're not fully in, you're already fucking out. Say it 100%, right.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you're familiar, matthias Barker is a therapist I love.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, he has a great, great camera. I love it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Love Like love. Matthias and he was on and we were talking about people pleasing and he said one thing to always just remember is am I being hurtful or harmful? He was like hurtful, I can hurt your feelings. He was like because I need to right, I have to hurt your feelings, because I care about you.
Speaker 2:I love you right or am I being harmful? I'm not saying anything, I'm not right. We're actually doing more damage than we are good. And I think what you brought up is a really good clarification, because there's the difference between I've only met this person once or twice and you're like, okay, I don't really know them, I can't. I mean, I can have empathy and be like, okay, hey, you weren't feeling it. But like, if I've only gone on one date with you and I send you a text and you're calling me all these names and all that, I'm just going to go. I'm really glad I made this decision. Thank you so much. I wish you all the best. Right. Like I don't need to Versus when you know someone for a long time and you're like, just, I'm not feeling this anymore.
Speaker 2:I think what shocks me is like, you know, the ghosting thing, especially when it's like I've had one date with this person. I'm like, eh, okay, I don't know that. I want to say ghosting because it hurts your mental health and all the psyche versus like people that have been in like months, year relationship. I had that my first time I ever got ghosted I was 20. I never heard of it before. We were dating for three months.
Speaker 1:I saw him that, well, the term didn't exist yet.
Speaker 2:Right, I don't even think it was. He was one of the first people I ever met online. Like that was all, how new, it was, right, no-transcript flicked him off and it's like don't do that, you live in my neighborhood, I'm gonna see you. And that's where I have to say like hey, that's just your inability to be honest with me. Like, I'm not a bad person. I would have been totally okay. I didn't attack him, I was just like I thought that was really disrespectful and rude, which you did. There was a way to handle yourself in a decorum. But again, it's also about knowing, like if I see somebody that's going to ghost, I don't necessarily need to create a narrative about them. But what I do need to look at and say is they're obviously dealing with some stuff that they couldn't be honest with me and that's okay. Right, like I don't, I don't have to make this about me.
Speaker 1:And let it go. You know, I think, just let it go. I think people like obsess over shit, like that the. The other thing I find like really intriguing is like you don't have to tell someone like why you're not into it anymore unless they ask, cause oftentimes that's like your honesty is actually going to be harmful because they didn't ask for it. So just say, hey, you know, I'm not interested anymore. Thank you very much. If they and for me, like I would be like okay, thanks for letting me know, I appreciate your honesty and that's it. I wouldn't really ask. It's like I am who I am. They have a problem with something or something or whatever. Maybe something else on their side doesn't really matter. The fact is is they're just saying they're not in. That's okay.
Speaker 1:Tat thing, when someone literally like why I thought we had a great couple of dates or whatever, I'm like okay, if you're going to ask for that, you have to get yourself emotionally to a point where you can handle that honesty and I can at this point where someone's like hey, I don't like the way you speak, or I don't like this value, whatever that you have, or I don't like your political beliefs, or I don't like your whatever belief. I'm like, okay, like I asked, right, but if I didn't ask, and then someone's just like well, I don't want to be with you because this. I'm like okay, well, thank you for telling me, you know, but it's then, then you don't really need to get into a conversation. One of the things that is really interesting to me is that when we, when we say we love somebody and we get to a point where someone, uh, let's say, doesn't want to be with us, and then they say that right, because we ask them for their truth, and then immediately we're just like vanish, right, we're just all right, see you fucking later because you don't want to be with me. That is something that gets sort of like just promoted in society, even by therapists, and I just can't agree with that.
Speaker 1:You can still love somebody and have a loving friendship with them if you want right, if you want like, if they don't want to be with you in romantic, you don't just have to cut them out of your life, you know. And so I think, like for some people, you get to a point where, okay, it's like so toxic, you have to separate because it's not healthy, but don't forget, like, at some point you love this person very deeply. They loved you. If they don't want to be with you and they're being honest with you they're probably saying that out of love, hopefully. And if so, you don't have to just disappear. You don't have to completely disappear to heal. Now, obviously, you might have to take some space to let go of that heart, that strong attachment, but you can still be in their life and love them and be there for them. They can be there for you.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I think is really harsh is when you have this loving, beautiful relationship and just because one person doesn't want to be in it or it's just like, well, let's cut this fucking shit. And I'm like, if you don't have trauma, that is sort of insinuating that that should happen, meaning like you really did some fucked up shit and no one's owning it. If two people are owning their stuff, that's a beautiful relationship you don't want to lose. Ladies and gentlemen, it's hard enough and this person knows you well enough. They can be a great support system. They can help hold you accountable when you're in another relationship, when you fall in love again, because you fucking will.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not one person you could fall in love with on the earth. It's not two people, there's 8 billion people on planet earth. You could fall in love with a lot of them. And I just want to throw that out because I think a lot of times we sort of like raw, raw, like Yas King, yas Queen, kind of bullshit where it's just cut somebody, your life. I'm like wait a minute, slow the brakes down. Just because someone delivered their truth to you and it doesn't involve you in that capacity, in their life. That doesn't mean they don't love you, that doesn't mean you don't love them. It doesn't mean like, yes, your heart is going to hurt, your heart is going to hurt, your heart is going to be broken for a bit, but it doesn't mean that you just throw it away.
Speaker 1:You know, think about it, feel about it, wait, don't do anything rash, you know it's different than if someone does something super fucked up and you're just like okay, like this is it. This is poisoning my life. Yes, I understand that, but it's not always like that, so yeah, oh, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2:I have so many people like, especially because I don't like the pendulum swings, I don't like the severity of like cut everyone off or stay too long, and you're like no, no, no, can we find a balance? Yeah, I think I'm also like the whole. Let's be friends with my ex. I'm like listen, I was friends with an anymore. He got into a new relationship, I got into you know, and then you just kind of naturally, just maybe we text each other once a year of like oh my god, dude, how are you? I'm good, thanks you, but I went with you because I can't tell you. I remember my brother once saying he was like why is it that every person that like because we were talking about like relationships and he's like.
Speaker 2:I meet so many people where it's like if it's not the one, then you're like I never want to see you again. It's like, not everybody has to be the one. Sometimes I have had it where some guys were great for the night I got, I had a, I had a great time, we had some fun over a video to baby, and maybe I'll just keep in touch with you. There doesn't need to be bad blood unless, like you said, the only time for me I am advocating for like hey, just move on to your point. Super toxic, unhealthy something that's like very clearly causing you distress, okay, please don't engage. But usually what I would suggest is, if someone's breadcrumbing you, it's like it doesn't mean that they're bad. We don't need to put a good or bad label on them. You know what this could also mean. This is no longer where I want to put my energy and I'm just gonna just move that elsewhere. This person could be an awesome friend.
Speaker 2:I have had so many guys I've dated that even now I am cheering them on in their new relationship because I find I'm so happy for them. They never did anything wrong to me. We went out a couple of times. It didn't pan out into anything. We said listen, honestly, I think we'd be let's be gym friends, like I'll see you out. We could have a conversation because what that does is more often than not and kind of to your point as well about the why. Right, if we kind of loop all of that back in of like I need to know why, no one really wants to know. Oh, okay, nico, if you ended it with me, if I was like well, why? If you were like, oh, because I met someone else, that's like defcon for a lot of people and nobody wants it.
Speaker 2:What's wrong with me, am I not?
Speaker 2:good this doesn't have to be about you. It really could just be, if we zoom out, because I I'll be honest with you. There are a couple of men in my time and I dated since I was 18, I'm 34, so it's quite a bit of data that I would say, yeah, they were like the ones that got away, or like man. These guys are like really amazing people. What a shame, right. What are you going to do? But on the aggregate, most of them, you're like they weren't for you. There's 8 billion fucking people and I think I don't know if you ever saw the study. There was a study done years ago that showed how few compatibility points we actually need to be in a relationship. Like we over conflate, that we have to have so many things in common. It's actually not that high.
Speaker 1:Dude, I completely agree and I think that especially our generation, younger generations, now we are and this is tough for a lot of people to admit, and I had to admit to myself, even as a counselor who, like, on relationships, it doesn't mean I nail them at all, right, it's a learning process for everybody. I just want to throw that out there. It's not an expert opinion, it's just an opinion, right, based on other things that I'm trying to learn about. But oftentimes we're looking to date ourselves and I'm going to explain why this is the case. Right, it's like you just brought up compatibility. When I ask someone, okay, like what are you looking for? And they'll name all these things, and I'm like, okay, who in your life like sort of hits those points? Like, well, I do.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're just trying to date yourself, right, and it's a very like egotistical thing. We don't realize it, but we're really trying to get ourselves in. If we're really honest about it, are we even meeting in all those levels? Are we as emotional, intelligent as we think we are? Are we as self-aware? Are we as empathetic? Are we as compassionate? Are we as good of a listener as we think we are, or only when it's easy to listen. When it gets hard to listen when something you don't want to hear, do we turn to some different type of listener. So we're asking for these things.
Speaker 1:It's like one no one's going to be a perfect human being, right?
Speaker 1:And then also we're not a perfect human being, and so I appreciate you saying like you probably don't need to have all these check boxes and be as compatible as you think you are, because it really is where you're starting, at a baseline on things that really matter to you, right? If you're around the same area, in the same ballpark, chances are you're going to be able to work on shit. If both of you are like willing to work on shit, you know, if you're starting on different levels and you're dragging someone out or you're being pulled up, like that's never going to work because you're just not at a like base area. And again, there's no good or bad here. It's just about finding someone where you're like kind of the same ballpark on the things that really matter to both of you, and then you go from there. But you should be two totally different individuals. You might have some similarities, but if you're looking for something that just nearly agrees with you the whole time. There's no fucking growth in that.
Speaker 2:There's no growth in that I hear it also to like, kind of to add to what you're saying, is what I hear a lot of like, well, I would do that and it's like so you want someone that's always just going to do what you would do. That's not very fun Because I look at it as, like the Venn diagram needs to have some crossover right, like if I were looking for my exact, I'll be honest, I'd be probably really sick and tired of someone that would talk as much as me. That would be as having all this like I am the picture I need a frame right. I don't need another picture. I can't have two of us that are trying to go for the spotlight. I need someone that's going to keep me structured and, like my partner, if he wasn't as driven as into growth as I am, we wouldn't be together. It would have been the end of the road a long time ago. We're very different people. People meet us all the time and at first they're like really I, where's the connection? And then, when they see us together, they're like oh, I see he really balances you and you bring out this side in him and he brings out this.
Speaker 2:But where do we cross over Morals, ethos, ethics, like the big picture of things. Where do we want to live? Do we want to have children or not? Like those are the meat and potatoes of that's the important stuff, right? If I want kids, he doesn't. I don't care how much I love this person, it's not going to work. But I think you know, but I have to have this one.
Speaker 2:As a child, you're right, I only got one set of caregivers. If I couldn't make it work with them, that would be it. I would be abandoned, I would die, I wouldn't have any survival. You're not dating mom or dad, though, so you don't have to make it work with this one person, because I'll hear this, I'll be like I want them to do all these things, and I'm like cool, how'd that work for your parents?
Speaker 2:Did they change? No, it's like so think. What do you think is going to happen here, where repeat the past becomes the present and all we end up doing is repeating the same shit? Until we have the awareness, until we do the work, until we understand ourselves, our body, until we put, you know, space between feeling to fucked and allow ourselves the moment to be able to say wait a minute, let me see how I'm feeling about this and then I can articulate that to this partner.
Speaker 2:It's going to be difficult to have the intentional and beautiful, healthy, secure relationships until you show up as that, and I know it's not what anyone wants to hear. This is not about being perfect. This isn't about being I have to be fully healed there is no such thing but it really is about at least like you said I don't want to be mile 15 in my journey and you're mile one, because I'm always going to either be going back to pull you up and then I'm exhausted and resentful, or vice versa. There's got to be some kind of Venn diagram crossover where this fucking makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yep, no, I absolutely agree with that. I think one of the things that you had brought up earlier, before you got briefly disconnected, was that if someone doesn't like something about your personality, whatever, like, you can say, like, okay, I'm not going to change, right, it's who I am. But I would also even argue that, like, don't just go from zero to a hundred. Like, think and feel about it, like, because we all have things to work on, and so oftentimes, people that love us and are, let's say, throwing out a criticism sometimes it might be hurtful to use Matthias thing, but not the intention, isn't it to be harmful they're saying something that really does bother them, or maybe bothers a lot of people, and maybe they're just have enough love for us to say it, right, to tell us straight up like, hey, you know, what you're saying is just, or how you're behaving is just hurting me, or it's manipulative, or it's gaslighting or whatever you know, and maybe they might not be able to use those words or pinpoint it, but maybe they're trying to communicate this and there's like a warning light that should come on like a check engine light.
Speaker 1:Right, we need to check the engine, not anyone else, right? And so it's like you need to start to look at yourself and say, hey, this is a person, I have a point and take some time. Don't just be like, yes, this, okay, maybe there's some truth to it. How do I work on it? This is what we do with a therapist. This is what we do. Right versus like I mean, like I don't have anything to work on, like I'm good, fuck you, you know. That's just that that doesn't really get you anywhere in terms of being a better partner, right like it also doesn't make you a better leader no 100.
Speaker 2:I think the key difference here is like are they talking about a fundamental personality trait of yours that you're like oh, okay, well, I can't really do anything about that right, right.
Speaker 2:that's, I think, the difference, because I'm always curious if my partner comes to me and is like, hey, this really bothered me, and I'm like talk to me. Okay, what did I do? Where did? Oh? Okay, I did, didn't know, I didn't know that. Versus if he's like god, sabrina, you're loud and I'm like I've always had this tonality, like this is how I speak, like I don't now want to be in my head trying to change the authentic version of myself, that I feel good about myself, like there are differences, I think, between the personality aspects and then the how can I grow and evolve and change what's fixed, what's not? But I think we had just like for me. I don't know, I think I would. I would take a guess that you're probably similar to me. I look at triggers. I look at all this stuff as like yay, how can I level up? I look at it as like I'm excited that I can become the best version of myself, because if this is it, if this is the best of me, it's kind of boring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And I think that I'm also in the understanding that you know, I will never completely neutralize all my triggers. They're part of me, right? It's how I was raised, it's how my mom treated me, it's how my grandparents all these different influences but to be aware of them, I can more readily sort of pacify them when they're coming up bubbling up or if they are to reach the sort of red alert stage, I can apologize for them or own them after, more quickly than having to need one to two weeks or a month to really actually own my own shit.
Speaker 1:And I think we're often so focused on someone else owning their shit that we overlook our own. You know, and that's just another big component of this is, like you said, this it's just like you can't force someone to be someone they're not right, but you can look at yourself and change your own behaviors and, wow, what an idea like. That's what you should be doing, right, and I think that if, if more people were doing that, there would be more healthy relationships, because then you would have people stepping into the sort of envelope or the container of a relationship and talking monogamously, but this could exist on all different relational levels, like if you have a baseline understanding on the shit that goes wrong a lot within yourself, you bring that forward as a gift and offer it to someone else. Hey, look, I know that I can be short-sighted, I know that I have a temper, I know that I have a tendency to shut down or when I get overwhelmed at work or whatever. I might not show up as much emotionally and I want to work on that with you. Versus like this is who I am, just accept it and it's just like.
Speaker 1:No relationships are about compromise. They are about compromise. One person can step in more at one point in time, the other person can step in more at another point in time, and it's less of like a balance seesaw and more of like all, right, it's like a sinusoidal thing, right. But then we find ourselves in the relationships often where it's like boom, it's like one person doing all the work and the other person just coasting or opposite, and then we establish like that being acceptable and if that's how you want to relate, fine, again, no problems. But if you want a more balanced relationship and you are in one of those, that's when we have to look again at ourselves. What inside of me is saying this is okay. And what inside of me is so scared, not loving to stay in it and not love myself enough to be like, yeah, this is not a relationship, this is just codependency. This is just me feeding something that is taking and not getting much back 100%.
Speaker 2:I can't remember who it was. It's such a great thing. But she was saying look at relationships. You want to look at it? Oh, my friend Sam, and she was like look at it like a balance sheet. She was like we want to look at it as we have a lot of deposits and you're going to have withdrawal. She was like but when the deposits are the positive right, we're in a cash flow Great, the relationship can keep going. She was like then, if we get to the point where it's constantly depleting, depleting, depleting, depleting, and you're not adding to the relationship, that's when we have to look and say this doesn't feel balanced. I'm exhausted, I feel drained, I don't feel like we're reciprocal.
Speaker 2:And it's again. But it takes self-awareness because otherwise we go into the fixer of like I always overgive. Look let me bleed so you can see how hard I'll go. And that's on us right. Like that's the givers. We can't blame the takers. We have to be responsible for how much we give. It's not about blaming anybody, but you know I can't do this anymore and that's the compromise in the relationship. Some days you're going to need to be 90% and other days you're going to need to the 10%. You're going to need your partner to show up as 90. But like are you guys in alignment and an agreement of? This is how this works. It's like that makes a cohesive home when you are. And like I don't let shit fly in this house, like I was from. Get very clear with my partner. Like I came for this inconsistency. My father is a raging piece of shit. Like I am not going through this again I don't do inconsistency.
Speaker 2:I don't do hot and cold. When he starts to act the attitude, the hot and cold I will be the first to sit him down and be like what the fuck are we doing? Like this behavior doesn't work for me. I need to talk to you about this and then we have a very full conversation and we move on with it, because we actually get to the root of the issues. We don't talk about the stupidity of like you always leave the tv on. Well, you did, and it's like it's not about the tv being left on and it's not about the fact that you left the fucking fridge open. It's about the fact that your partner is frustrated about something far deeper, and if we could just get to that. Oh man, relationships are a lot more fun when you can actually discuss the issues at hand and not create new ones by skirting around the root.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and we, that's exactly it. And we tend to do that. We tend to avoid, we tend to avoid the root, because sometimes we even might know what it is, but we know that it's going to be painful or it's going to be hard to talk about, and so we'll just we'll manifest it through sarcasm or through anger, you know, and it'll be the fridge, it'll be the toilet seat, it'll be, you know, whatever the kid was late to school, or you know the dog didn't, whatever. We'll pick something out where it's like that's and that's what therapy kind of does. It's like, yeah, is that really what you're mad about? Or are you mad about because you're just mad at yourself, because maybe you did something that you regret?
Speaker 1:Or you feel's interesting that you bring up your dad, because I didn't grow up with a dad. My dad was never in my life. I grew up with my grandfather helping raise me a lot. He was my father figure. I'm going to have a solo podcast on this, but I really would love to talk to you about fatherhood in this way, because my father, interestingly enough, reached out.
Speaker 1:This was probably six or seven, maybe even eight years ago and he sent me a message on Facebook and he literally said hey, just want to say I feel so bad about never being in your life. It was very short and he's like I know what it's like to be a single parent because he's a single parent of a girl. So I had a half sister I'd never knew, never met, and it was just like these couple sentences. And it's interesting because, besides any accountability, it was realistic, like I'm sorry, whatever. And then I said, hey, no problem, I don't have any resentment anymore.
Speaker 1:I was like whatever, 30, 29 at the time I think this was before my cycling crash and I responded like, hey, totally open to get to know you if it works out at some point, and know you, you know if it works out at some point. And the interesting thing is like after that there was like no communication and immediately I was like, yeah, this person is apologizing to make themselves feel better, Right, and I want to get into sort of apologies with you because and I'm bringing up this because, again, my dad is a fucking bum, absolute bum, Like I have nothing to do with them. Because literally, when I kind of probed it a little bit more, I could see that this person is very selfish, very unaware, not someone I would want my son to be, like, not someone I would want my daughter to be like, and therefore I wish them the best.
Speaker 1:They are not my father, right. They might be biologically responsible for me coming in their nutsack and being alive, but other than that, they contributed zero to who I am as a man. Right, I have all these other people that put in actual love and actual time and effort, right, and so when we talk about apologies, I think they're quintessential for healthy relationships. You have to learn how to apologize. We are not taught how to apologize, and I always refer back to like the kids in a sandbox thing, like when you were a kid and you're playing in a sandbox and let's say you like threw something or someone, some kid took your toy and you smacked them, or maybe you started crying and your parent if you had a parent that did this they were like, hey, say you're sorry.
Speaker 2:Say sorry.
Speaker 1:Right, say sorry, okay, okay, sorry, and then you get back what you want and everything's good. And we're never taught why we're saying sorry or when we should actually say sorry. It's just when someone's hurt, and I disagree with that teaching philosophy. I think you should say you're sorry and apologize when you mean it, when you actually think you've done something wrong, and if you don't think you've done something wrong, that's when you need to investigate and get better at deciphering, because someone, for instance, might have their feelings hurt, but we didn't do anything wrong. They just have their feelings hurt because we live in a very sensitive society where, again, victimization is empowering in a lot of ways. And so I think, when I talk about apologies, this is where really self-awareness kicks in. It's like empathy as well too. It's like if I did something hurtful someone I love or to anyone, for instance, and I see that they're hurt before I just say I'm sorry, I'm going to think about it. It's like, okay, did what I do, was it malicious or did it really hurt them and I was unaware of it and so let me apologize. However, if someone is just like pissed off at me and they're going to act hurt because they want to be hurt. I'm not going to apologize, in that unless I think or feel I've done something wrong, it doesn't mean that I haven't or have done something wrong. It's about I need to understand it more. And the reason I'm saying this is because we throw apologies at everything now. It's just like, oh, that doesn't okay, sorry. We just want to pacify things rather than grow from it and learn from it, right? And so apologies should have a purpose.
Speaker 1:And I read Dr Harriet Lerner's book why you Won't Apologize and it really sort of was interesting, because it kind of I'd never really understood, I'd never studied how to apologize, right. I was just like assuming someone's hurt. I say I'm sorry, all right, if they forgive me or not, that's on them. But hey, I've apologized, right, I've done my work. And it's like the work is in deciphering when the apology is warranted and then if you say it, then you really mean it. And then you follow it with a change of behavior, because apologies again a trope without change of behavior is just manipulation. You know, have you experienced that at all, like in the work you've done with people? It's like people just say they're sorry all the time, but they don't mean it, they're just trying to like nip the conversation in the butt so they don't have to get into the actual pain.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, or like what my mom taught us is like just take, say sorry for everything, because everything's your fault, so is your fault. So you might as well just own it all and just be like sorry, sorry, like my mom. I'll literally be like oh mom, can I grab that? I'm so sorry. I'm like mom, you, it's okay, you don't have to apologize, like you're just sitting next to that, I just need to grab it for me. 100.
Speaker 2:I think one thing that we've implemented in our home is personally, is like the other day, like I there wasn't, you know, ryan did something. He was a dude and he was a fucking asshole and he just did something rude and I explained it to him and he and I didn't, I didn't even have to say it because he caught himself and he goes. Well, I'm sorry, you felt that way. And then he stopped himself and he goes no, I need to reword that. I'm sorry that my actions caused you to feel that way, because what I did is ultimately what made you feel this shitty. And you're right, what I did was really inappropriate to you and I'm sorry. That was where I was like thank you very much, because I'm sorry you feel this way. Isn't a fucking apology. Oh, okay, you're sorry that I'm having a feeling Thank you so much for taking any ownership for how I have that feeling and oftentimes, like how I'll apologize. I was like, hey, let me take ownership, that wasn't my intent. But intent without action doesn't mean shit, right? So I will take ownership that what I did hurt you and for that I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention. There is a way because, like I could say something and be really harsh and people will say that was harsh and I'm like I'm not sorry for what I said, but I do apologize. If the way that I said it was too harsh for you, let me reword it. But what I said still stands, because that's, I think, like you said, the difference of the sensitivity, right.
Speaker 2:I've had people say, well, that's really mean, like you should apologize and it's like apologize for being direct. I don't think that I need to apologize for just saying something how it was Right Versus, like I've had I've had plenty of people call me out for that, especially when I go live with like you're fucking rude, you are an apology. It's like all I said was you're wasting your time. I don't think you need to continue. I don't see what was rude about that. I think that I was just being honest, right. So I think there's also a level of just taking some personal taking a step back to be like okay, someone hurt doesn't mean that there's something wrong with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And growing up. If I really always internalize that everything that's happened is my fault and I need to own it and I'm responsible and I'm the problem right and I'm the this, then what I have to look at now is do I find, like, when my hurt my, when my partner hurt my feelings, when he stopped he said, listen, I can understand how that hurt you, right, if I can stop to go? Oh yeah, I could totally see that if that were happening to me, that would be so hurtful. For that I'm so sorry. That really wasn't my intention. What I intended to was this there is a way to apologize and then rectify it with here's what.
Speaker 2:But again, no one teaches us that. Right, like I grew up where my father has never apologized except for something small of like a door closes on you. He's like oh sorry, but like hurting us, right. When I asked my dad, like you know, why did you do that as kids? His response was you were bad kids, your mother was a terrible wife, what did you want me to do? And I was like oh right, yeah, duh, right, if you had no control versus I'm so sorry that I impacted you that way. That was never my intention, because I know for me, like when my mom apologizes for things that she's not responsible for, I get more angry. It's like yo then now I find you disingenuous. Now you're just fucking apologizing for everything and I don't actually trust that, when you're saying sorry, that you genuinely mean it.
Speaker 2:So I think there is a way to we can get curious. If somebody comes to me and says they're hurt, if I don't necessarily feel I owe them an apology, my response would be what do you think I owe you an apology for? So I can understand further what you're upset about. And if they say, well, I don't like this, okay, so it was the tonality, okay, so I apologize for my tone, but I don't apologize for what I said. Sorry, I may not understand that I owe you an apology, but regardless, you mean something to me, so I apologize for even upsetting you. Like, if that's something that hurt you, I will look into this. But, like you said, if somebody is overly sensitive and it's constantly doing that, that's when we have to stop and go. Well, I don't actually feel authentic about saying sorry and I would love to get curious and understand, like, what are your expectations of me? Because now I feel like I don't know that I can match them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really like how you put that, sabrina. I think that's very true as far as like understanding someone's expectations about yourself and then seeing if you really are the appropriate person to meet those, because sometimes that's when you say, all right, friendships or relationships end because I just keep hurting this person, because they just keep being hurt. And maybe, again, I really like what Matthias had brought up like hurtful versus harmful, because it's this sort of we view it as a double negative but it really isn't. Like truth and love could be hurtful but it still should be honest, right, you know, like a lot of fear, anger, resentment, that can be harmful and that can manifest in different ways. I think that's it's really interesting to paint that picture in my mind. I just really really like that.
Speaker 1:I'm going to start using that with clients because it's it allows someone anything that like people can relate to and you can explain to them how to be more compassionate, empathetic, while also making more informed, better decisions for themselves and for others. I think that's a really good like just nuance to to break down. But I really want to say thank you so much for coming on the show. I want to be respectful of your time because I know we've been on for about an hour now. Can you give us the plug now? Where can people find you? Where can they tune into your podcast? How can they get more of your content? And are you still accepting people to work with you one-on-one too?
Speaker 2:So sabrinazoharcom, our Sabrina Zohar show, wherever all the fun stuff is Insta, tiktok, all that shit. If you type in Sabrina Zohar, something will come up, whether it's me or a fake. Look for look for me. Uh, but no, I, right now I'm actually transitioning. I am it's.
Speaker 2:I love working one-on-one, but I also have so many other projects and things that I'm doing. So I am working with folks, but also trying to like step away and really push the courses that I have. They're like oh, it's self-guided, you guys can go on your own pace. It has all the information that you'll need and then you can unpack it with a therapist or somebody that you're working with. But right now I just I love to just connect with people and in general and like comment on some stuff. Like you don't, don't DM me, I don't answer DMs, that's just. That's the cesspool of life. I can't get caught up're a creator, you learn that you have to. But comment on like a podcast clip or a reel or something like that to at least let me know your thoughts and like we can continue the conversation. And, nico, I need to have you on the Sabrina Zohar show so you and I can have a different conversation for the audience and hear a male perspective as well.
Speaker 1:I would absolutely love that. Is that all in person? I would absolutely love that, is that all in person yes, for now, so we can schedule it Well.
Speaker 2:you and I will coordinate for next year of when you're going to be in California, la, some kind of uh, either here or LA, I can record either.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm currently in flight school right now, so the goal is to be able to fly places myself. So that would be perfect, cause it gives me an excuse to come into the LA airspace, which is a clusterfuck, so it makes you a better pilot. So let's, let's schedule that, let's do it.
Speaker 2:Perfect, I'll text you after and we'll figure that out.
Speaker 1:Cool, sabrina. Thank you so much, my friend, for for coming on the show. It's again blessing to be able to share an hour with you. I can't wait to meet you in person and you know again. Just want to speak for a lot of people saying thanks for what you do and what you put out there. Thank you so much for tuning in to Star of the Eagle, feed the Soul. Please leave us a five-star written review on Apple and Spotify podcasts. It's a free way you can give back the show and show your support and, as always, if you want to work with me one-on-one, head over to wwwnicoborazacom.