Starve the Ego Feed the Soul
Starve the Ego Feed the Soul
Relationship Advice That Starts With You with Jillian Turecki
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We sit down with my friend Jillian Turecki after the launch of her book "It Begins with You" to talk about what changes when your work goes mainstream and why the best relationship advice still begins with self-awareness. We dig into mentorship, ethics, and dating culture so you can spot guidance that helps you grow instead of advice that keeps you stuck.
• the problem with pop-psych labels that make you a victim
• why self-accountability matters more than “red flags”
• what people take from It Begins With You
• why being single does not disqualify a relationship coach
• the danger of giving advice that causes harm
• why mentors and supervision should be non-negotiable
• what a real mentorship or certification path could include
• how to vet a coach or therapist with trust and clarity
• dating apps, the gender divide, and rebuilding empathy
• the safety realities women face and the issue of married daters
If you do, please consider leaving the show a five-star written review on Apple or Spotify or both.
And then consider sharing the episode or any episode that connects with you.
Warmly,
Nico Barraza
@FeedTheSoulNB
www.nicobarraza.com
Why Gillian Matters Today
SPEAKER_00Whatever you do. The world we live in right now.
SPEAKER_04Good morning, y'all. Welcome back to the show. I've been holding on this episode for it's almost been a year now, so apologies to Gillian, who's a who's a friend of mine. And uh Gillian has now been on the show four times. She is the uh by far the most she's returned the most time to the show. Obviously, people request her all the time because uh if you don't know who Gillian Torecki is, you absolutely should. Um when I first met Gillian, she maybe had 50 to 60,000 followers on social media. Now she has multiple millions of followers, um, has written an incredible book, um, has been on Oprah, has done all these different things uh with her career and her life. And honestly, it's so cool to see someone that is sharing such authentic uh parts of I would say the relational journey. Um because I think one of the things, and I talk about this on the show with her, is that you can there's so much bullshit on the internet these days. I mean there's people that have counseling degrees, therapy degrees, psyches, psychiatrists, and and we're all sharing these like biased things, you know, but uh throwing out these terms like narcissism or codependency or all these different things that sort of just like victimize the self and never really helps you grow or be a better partner, be a better parent, or be a better human being. And not that I've said this until I'm blue in the face on the show, but not that recognizing how you've been hurt isn't important, it is, but also recognizing your contributions and hurting others and how you're dysfunctional, and it's not just not seeing the red red flags, people. Sorry, that's a cop out. Um so Jillian, Jillian really holds uh, I guess, that that space, that tension of the opposites, and I appreciate that because I try to do that and emulate that in anything I say um in terms of uh how we relate to ourselves and to others. So apologies. This this show was recorded basically almost a year ago now. Um I have uh, as you guys know, I've been kind of sporadic with uh episodes, and I'm trying my best to um uh to be, you know, do once a week again. I will say I'm gonna take a little bit of credit for this, Jillian. I was one of the first people to tell Jillian to start a podcast because I remember when I had her on mine, she didn't have one yet. And I was like, You have a great voice and you have a great story and you're you're putting out all this amazing content, like have a podcast. And she was like, No, well, it's a lot of work, and I don't know who would edit it. Um at the time I I didn't have time because I had a couple other clients I was editing shows for. Um but I think fast forward it was like six, seven months after that, she had found a company to help with her show, and boom, now look at it, it's it's massive. Um so uh yeah, it's a I I'm so happy for all her success. Um, she's such a cool human being. She's also a dog lover. And uh I know um so Soul, my my oldest dog passed away on June 5th, as many of you know uh know about if you follow me on Instagram. Um but I do have an episode that I I recorded about a couple days before Soul Pass that was like super emotional and just talking about grief and grieving her uh and like um just preparing for that grief. So I will release that soon too. Um it just hasn't felt like the time yet, but I'll release it. I'll release it probably in the next couple weeks here. Um I don't really recall what Jilly and I talk about, but I'm sure it's good stuff because I haven't listened to uh this was again, it was almost a year ago, but I'm sure it's great stuff. I'm sure ask her about her her book that had just come out um recently at the time. Um and if you haven't listened to or if you haven't read the book or listened to it, go download it, go purchase it. It's amazing. Um go give her a follow on social media, tune into her podcast. I mean, she's doing great things. Um yeah, so again, huge thanks to Jillian for coming back on the show. And I hope you guys enjoy the conversation. If you do, please consider leaving the show a five-star written review on Apple or Spotify or both. Helps the show grow. And then consider sharing the episode or any episode that connects with you. Um there's a ton of people out there that might benefit from some of the episodes on the show, but it might never reach them if you don't share it with them. So appreciate y'all, and until next time. There
Mic Check And Friendly Catch-Up
SPEAKER_04we go.
SPEAKER_02I can't hear you. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, okay, cool. Some reason my mic was not from my face. I totally heard it.
SPEAKER_02Hi, hi, hi, hi, hi. Sorry. How are you?
SPEAKER_04I'm doing around.
SPEAKER_02Are you done with all your your your uh Subit, sweetie?
SPEAKER_04Your sho shoulders? Shoulder, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like all
When Surgery Creates More Problems
SPEAKER_02that trauma. Are you finally like done with it?
SPEAKER_04No, I'm flying out to Boston in December to see another surgeon. Yeah, it just keeps getting worse. I'm I'm so not a fan of the orthopedic surgery industry at uh by this time, you know. Yeah, but thanks for asking. No, it's not done yet, unfortunately. I don't know if I'll get another surgery. It's my shoulder and my biceps now. Um, the the guy like the surgeons decided to cut the tendons of my biceps in both of these surgeries for really no apparent reason because they couldn't figure out what was wrong, so they started to cut native anatomy instead of the stuff that was put in. Yeah, it's wild, it's just a wild, a wild industry, very much focused on money.
SPEAKER_02Is there anything that you can do to not get another surgery?
SPEAKER_04So it's yeah, I mean I could just not get one, but the issue is that mechanically my shoulder is not um it like mechanically doesn't it doesn't function the right way, so the only way to really resolve all the biomechanical indifferences is to put it in the right position. And unfortunately, it's just not it's not what it's doing right now, you know. So um it's not so much the the surgery that is the biggest issue, it's just like living like this for the rest of my life. But you know, we'll see.
SPEAKER_02I'm not is it just is it range of motion? Is it pain?
SPEAKER_04It's pain, it's not range of motion. Uh range of motion is okay. It's mostly pain. Now it's strength because of the biceps of them cutting the biceps, but yeah, it there's a lot going on, honestly.
SPEAKER_02Um I just feel like there's gotta be something else that you can do other than go like I how many surgeries have you had?
SPEAKER_04I've had five. I mean, I've I've done everything from stem cells to you know injections to yeah, I've done everything. It's it's really uh if you imagine this way, like if if I get one of your bones and I put it in a different position and it's still in your body, you can do everything you want to that, but like that bone is still not where it's supposed to be. And because of that, your entire body's gonna compensate to the movement around that joint or that bone.
SPEAKER_02Do you get body work? Do you get do you have have you ever worked with a structural?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've worked with structural integration therapy. I've done it all, honestly.
SPEAKER_03Like people are, I know you've done it all.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've done everything. Yeah, because I had a lot of resources when I was an athlete right when it first happened. And you know, it it really was just the surgery. The first surgery was so bad that it's really hard to come back from that. You know, it's essentially like someone, you know, went in there with a couple of razor blades and just cut cut you open and drilled a bunch of holes. So I think uh yeah, we'll see. You know, this guy in Boston's supposedly pretty good, but I'm just going out for consultation just to see what he has to say.
SPEAKER_02If he doesn't have any ideas, you go to the best of the best.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, that's what this guy in Vale was, and this guy in Boston's the best too. I mean, Dr. Peter Millet is who did my most recent one, and he he honestly messed my arm up more. He didn't listen to what I said. I wrote him a huge long thing about the biomechanics behind what's going on on my shoulder, and he still went in there, didn't remove what was put in, and clipped the long head of my bicep, which I specifically asked him not to do.
SPEAKER_02Um, so I mean you can sue him for that if that's truly the case.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know what you would think it's very hard to sue these guys. It really is because you sign stuff when you go into um the OR, you know, kind of absolving and going into remediation instead of like litigation. And it's uh yeah, it's a really messed up industry, honestly. I didn't realize how messed up it is.
SPEAKER_02Um do you ever have like reprieve from the pain? Does it ever do you ever have moments where it feels better than other times?
SPEAKER_04Uh I think it I think honestly, like, and as sad as this is is to say, it's like the less I move, you know, yeah, the less painful it is. So the more I use it, the more painful it is, which is really unfortunate being 35 and still wanting
Can The Mind Rewire Pain
SPEAKER_04to do all the things with my body that I was doing, you know.
SPEAKER_02So have you looked into mind-body stuff?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I've looked into it.
SPEAKER_02You like Dr. Sarner's work?
SPEAKER_04That name sounds familiar.
SPEAKER_02I don't know if I've heard looked into his, but I mean everything from like that some of the pain could actually be somewhat psychosomatic. Yeah, because this is very, very, very common that happens after injuries.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I know. I don't know how much of a believer I am with that world, honestly.
SPEAKER_02I've had a couple of god, that's the only world I believe in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've had a couple of physicians talk to me about it, and I don't I think it's easy to say that until you have a nail in your foot. You know, I think it's really weird.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, I totally get it. You would have to see someone who would have to verify to you that like I just know that most I don't know, I just I just believe in the power of the mind. Yeah, and even if something is off or wrong, just the power of the mind. I mean, people go to Joe Gispenza events like legitimately having multiple sclerosis, like you know, like that's not and then they end up walking afterwards. And so without a wheelchair or without a cane. So the power of the mind is just it's just unbelievable. You know, there are people who've healed, can't, you know, I don't know. You'd have to believe in it. But Dr. Sarno, he's he died, but he wrote the most famous book in the world ever published on back pain.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think I actually remember.
SPEAKER_02These things that happen, particularly after someone has legitimately hurt themselves, and there's liter legitimately legitimately something that's gone wrong. It's not something that someone, it's not fabrication, it's the connection between um it's it's a brain circuitry thing because your brain is so wired for the pain now that it's very hard to even get out of the pain.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and so it's not it's not woo-woo. This it's it's absolutely is science. Anyway, I just share that with you because you know, um I just I just share that with you. It's just just I just I think it's something worth exploring.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, for sure. I I will definitely look into it. Do not disturb anyway. Um shall we crack should we get cracking though? Because I know I want to be respectful for your time. I know you gotta go.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, originally you said you did this was just gonna be a 30-minute episode, so that's what I thought. Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's whatever is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_04I mean, you can always call me on the phone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, likewise.
SPEAKER_04I don't want I don't want to bother you because uh sometimes when I text you, like, oh, she's probably doing like 50 million things.
SPEAKER_02So No, I'm not actually doing 50 million things. I'm like very intentional about having time in my day where I'm not doing 50 million things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
Protecting Time With Real Boundaries
SPEAKER_02Like I schedule in yoga, I schedule in many, like I ha I have to have moments in my day where I'm not talking to someone, doing something, producing something. So it's not like my day is like, yes, there have been some days around the book where it's there's been no breathing room.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But oftentimes it's like, no, I just like I actually need two hours this afternoon where I'm not where I don't have to talk to where I'm not scheduled to. I mean, I'm not even talking to my friends on some days, you know? Right. Like my besties.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Where are you now?
SPEAKER_04Where am I? I'm back in Flagstaff in in home. Okay. Yeah. So I was in San Diego for a couple years, back in Flag, which I appreciate. I don't know. You have you been out here?
SPEAKER_02I haven't been to Arizona.
SPEAKER_04Dude, you gotta come to Flagstaff, you'd love it.
SPEAKER_02I know people have told me that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean it's right by Sedona. You know, Sedona is like where you're yeah, and I've always wanted to go. Yeah, people usually know Sedona before they know a flag, but flag is such a magical place. It's it's really good.
SPEAKER_02All right, welcome to very well.
SPEAKER_04I was actually gonna tell you we should plan a trip. I don't know what you got on your schedule, but probably a ton of things. Um, but if you want I really want to go back to Puerto Varta where I got my stem cells, that place was so sweet. I would love to go there for a week and just like film some stuff and have some good chats.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god. Well, I'm not going, I have to go to Cabo in November. I'm not going back to Puerto Varta. I don't I yeah. I went to Puerto Vallarta when I was like 16.
SPEAKER_04So I don't mean I'm I'm using that as like a catch-all term for the area.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no. I I know you don't mean that necessarily. I'm just I'm punting I'm reflecting on my Mexican experiences. That's all.
SPEAKER_04Have you been to Alaska?
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_04It's another one. Chamboni, France, too. There's a lot of good places.
SPEAKER_02I'm more interested in like going to Greece than I am to going to Alaska. Or Vancouver, British Columbia. I'm very interested in going to.
SPEAKER_04Oh, really?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I don't know. I'm not curious about Alaska.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Vancouver is like have you not been there before? It's pretty like standard, beautiful little cool little city. Yeah, it's cool.
SPEAKER_02I hear but it's also be like incredible nature, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's right. It's right in the Canadian Rockies. It's super pretty. Yeah. You're right by Whistler and Banff and all the all the famous places.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I don't want, I don't want to go. I'm not winter. Like I don't want to ski or do anything weird like that. I want I like summer. No, you, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, then you gotta go during the summer. I respect that. I love them, but it's not for everybody.
SPEAKER_02I know you're kinda you're an athlete, so yeah, I get it. I get it. No. No, no, no, no, not for me.
Fame Without Losing The Message
SPEAKER_04All right. Well, let's let's let's get to our chat.
SPEAKER_02My soft relationships.
SPEAKER_04Yes, relationships or just life. I want to know, like, first of all, thanks for coming back on the show. You're awesome. Of course. We we should say that we have rescheduled probably 27 times. I know, probably. Yeah, and it hasn't just started with me. It did start with me. I know, I know. I think you're gonna bring that up. Um, a lot of things have changed since we spoke, right? We spoke our last conversation was 2022, at least on the show, and things blew up for you, right? You have a book now, you've been on like speaking engagement tours. Tell me a little bit about what that process has been like. Like, has it changed life for you at all and how people see you on the internet? Because when we first connected, I think you maybe had like 60,000 followers or 70. And this was in 20.
SPEAKER_02When we first connected, no, I wasn't it a couple hundred thousand.
SPEAKER_04I don't know. In 2021, I think you had just like did we connect in 2021? Yeah, because it I didn't get you on the yeah, because you were on the show in early 2021. You were like you were like guest number 20 or something.
SPEAKER_02I just know then 2022 was like I by the time I started my podcast, it was around 400,000. But 2020, you know, for a lot of people during the pandemic, you know, I know people who went from you know, you know, nothing to to millions. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, well, I mean you might you might know because you're in that circle, but for me, like watching it happen to you, and obviously like I love your content. I think I think people can sell stuff on the internet and get a big following, but like the authenticity and the actual work you're doing is wonderful. I've always obviously been a fan of yours. But I think seeing you know go from like whatever this this like social media person that's talking about relationships to like pretty much an icon in the space now, right? Like your name is synonymous with anyone that's up there in the space now, right? People bring up your name in conversation, and it's funny because people will like stop me on the street if they recognize me and they're like, Oh my god, you had Jillian Scrick in your show. And I was like, Yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_03Wow, really?
SPEAKER_04Dude, totally. They're like, Yeah, and I'm like, it's happened multiple times, and I'm like, Yeah, she's pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_02That that that that like blows my mind to find out. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_04So I guess I want to know from you, like, has it changed anything? You know, have you like do you do you still feel you know the same as a person existing on the internet, you know, talking about what you're talking about, or or has it altered stuff in any way? Like just the stardom.
SPEAKER_02No, I feel the same. I think change is like, which I think is a good thing, is I've evolved in my understanding of the craft that that that I've dedicated my life to. Yeah. So there are just certain things I feel like I'm I'm growing, yeah, you know, in my understanding of it and in and and how I want to kind of share content. But has it changed anything on the inside? No, honestly, like not. No.
SPEAKER_04I figured it wouldn't with you, you know. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't um, I mean, I think that there's I feel I think the book the book obviously changed some things, but it didn't change it the only thing that it would change on the inside is sort of like, okay, well now it's like I can't, you know, anything that you any huge thing that you accomplish, you feel like motivated, inspired, you feel proud of yourself, you're like, okay, I'm I'm actually on to something. Um it it feels like you feel more uh like you're able to own the things that you're kind of sharing. But I but I've always sort of felt that way. So I can't really say, I mean, yes, have certain doors open because of the book, sure. And like have things changed, you know, in terms of like you know, popularity and stuff like that. Yeah, but I still but it's also everything is just adapting in a lot of ways. It's like things obviously have changed, but like I don't feel any different.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's probably a good thing, honestly.
SPEAKER_02I don't I wonder like how people feel different on the inside. I always feel like um Yeah, I don't I don't feel different, and also because like you know, this space is the space. It's not like I'm a movie star. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04It's not like I'm like don't count it out.
SPEAKER_02I I mean, right, but it's not like I'm starring in movies and then all like and then all of a sudden there's like tabloids about me. Like I feel like that changes a person's life so significantly. Right in this space, it's just like you know, no, at least not for me. I don't know, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. No, I I that that makes sense to me. I figured I'd I asked for that because I was I was curious because for some people it does, you know, because they're just not used to how much how how how viral and how quick things grow. So let's let's start at the book, right? It begins with you. Like has had a huge success, like a bunch of people are talking about it all over, you know, not even just within the self-help relationship, but I I see it all over the place now, you know? And it's it absolutely, yeah. It's at it's a target, right? Um I'm almost positive. I saw it, isn't it a target?
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, yes, I do believe it's a target. I'm almost positive.
SPEAKER_04I saw it like a target. This was like a couple months. I was like that is so cool, man. Like awesome. Yeah, you know, because I was it was next to John Kim's book too. And I was like, oh, two people I know in person. That's pretty dope. Oh yeah. So how how is that like first of all, like what is the what has the feedback been about the book for you? Because I know there's been a lot of positivity around it. And yeah, what what is like you know, the main, what do you think the the main thing is that people are taking away? Like not necessarily your intention, like you know, because you write something and then how people decipher it is different. What are people taking away from it?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I how what are people taking away from the book? I I mean I I mean lots of people, I can only base it on what people are actually if people are writing into me, just saying like for some people it's helped them heal from heartbreak. From other, I've had people feel like this completely changed my relationship with my dad. Someone said that they completely changed their relationship with their spouse. A lot of people are just like, you know, finding their power again. Um the you know, the reaction to the book has been like incredible and like beyond my wildest imagination. And um, you know, I it's just been it's been great. I think it's proof that when you really care about something and you really work hard, you know, you're there's results. I mean, I worked really, really hard on that book and not just on the writing of that book. That was something that I've been that was ten years of of my life that was put into that book. And um yeah, it's it's just a really it's a really great feeling. So I think people have um I think it's been really helping people a lot. And that's that was that was my intention.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. No, I I I mean it's just it's cool to see how much you light up around the work because I know how much time goes into writing something like that. And then of course, obviously it being so successful is like, you know, the it's it feels really good because it's just like all right, this thing did what it's supposed to do and it's still still growing.
Can Singles Teach Relationships Well
SPEAKER_04You know, one thing that people ask me a lot of, which is I always find intriguing, and they're like, Well, how can people give a relationship advice if they're single?
SPEAKER_02Oh do you get that question a lot? Yeah, no, I don't actually get that a lot because I'm not always single.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. No, I feel that it's just I it's interesting because I I remember reading something, I think this is on like oh, but I've I've seen other people say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I'm always and I'm curious like what your thoughts are on that, because even coming from relationships, having had relationships, right? Um, because I have my own thoughts on that. Uh but I'm curious what your thoughts are on like people that are single giving relationships.
SPEAKER_02I have I have a lot of thoughts on that. One is I mostly teach people about their relationship with themselves, I think, more than I teach about other relationships. Um and I definitely I have dating content, you know, for people, and I've got relationship content just because I have so much experience working with people and all in all of that. And sometimes I lean more into like the dating um content because it's more because it just feels more interesting to me at the time, and other times I'm seeing that people are resonating more with like the coupled stuff, and um but but but the through line uh through all of it is really your relationship with yourself, and um, and so I think that that's where my work is slightly different than other people's work in this space because I do focus so much on that, and I do focus so much on people. I also focus a lot on people not loving themselves and how that's reflected in their relationships or choosing poorly, and like, you know, really wanting people to understand how to mature themselves when it comes to choosing a partner and showing up as a partner. So my my message is kind of all over the place when it comes to that because it's all different things. So about being single, I think it all depends on why the person is single. You know, it's not about oh, they're single, why are they talking about relationships? I think there are people who are married, talking about relationships, and they're miserable in their marriage. So is are they any more complicated? Right? Like what I don't know. I think it's all the choice. I think it's like I said, it's it's why is the person single? The second part of it is what I find actually disturbing is the amount of people who are calling themselves experts or relationship experts, and none of them have a mentor. None of them have gone through any training. And or and none of them is actually, like I said, working with someone with an with an elder in the space who has a ton of experience who is their mentor. That I find incredibly disturbing. Um, I don't believe that anyone should be doing coaching or therapy if they are not actually doing the work themselves and working with a mentor.
SPEAKER_04Do you think it's like is it easy to find a mentor though? Because I feel like in this day and age, it's hard to find um like an elder, like a like, you know, a Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And even that could be like that elder, just someone who's what I mean by that, even metaphorical, someone who's way more experienced than you, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, it's not necessarily easy, but I really believe when there's a will, there's a way. And you find that person and you put yourself out there and you say, I really want to do it, and you keep and you keep doing it. You know, how how are you, you know, so I I just think that that's um that's really important. And uh yeah, but yeah, I don't I think it's all a matter of why is the person single? Are they single because they're a complete mess and they can't, you know, make a relationship work at all? Or are they single because this is a season that they're in and they want to be single?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02Are they single because they have a high standard? Are they you know what I so I think it's all it it really just depends. Not everyone in a relationship is actually, you know, in a good relationship.
SPEAKER_04So that that's exactly the point I was gonna make too. It's that I I I often wonder where the question is coming from. Like, what is the intention of the question? Right, because the question really is designed to sort of say that, like, hey, if you're a relationship, you can give relationship advice. And I'm like, no, because we we have we have proof that many relationships are failing and failing often, right? And many marriages are failing. And it's the same side with people who could be single because like you know, they don't want to, for a lot of reasons, deal with people's problems, deal with their own. There's a lot of those negative reasons on the single side too. But I think really what you said and what I agree with is like listen to what someone's saying, right? Like if they're saying stuff that is holding, like encouraging you to hold yourself accountable and to be a better partner, be a better person, and focus on yourself, it doesn't matter if they're in a relationship or not. That's probably pretty sound advice. If they're making it about the other more often than not, might not be the greatest place.
SPEAKER_02Because yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think, you know, people, I think people are getting smart, you know. Of course, there's always gonna be that sort of TikTok, Instagram girl or guy who's like, you know, talking about being in your cat energy or your gold original, you know, that kind of BS. But like, you know, I um I think as long as you're helping people, I mean, isn't that really just what it's all about? Like, if you're you're helping people, you don't have to have degrees, you don't have to have have, you know, been to, you know, have your PhD to be good at something, but I do believe you have to have someone, you have to be doing the work yourself. And I think that um I think where it's really important is that if you're one of the things that I was taught very early on in my coaching journey and coaching school is as someone who helps others, especially with their relationships and with their lives, the most important thing that that you as a as a practitioner, um, you know, coach, whatever, therapist, you have to make sure that the advice or the help that you're giving doesn't cause harm.
Do No Harm In Coaching
SPEAKER_02That was the most important that that was like the most profound advice I ever got. So, in other words, you're not gonna tell someone, you know, over the internet to, you know, leave your spouse. You know, some people write to me like, should I leave this person? It's like I I can't I can't tell, you know, the absolutely not. So I what's important is that you have a mentor for a couple of reasons or a teacher. And uh, and this is why I actually want to be become a mentor to people in this space. That's actually like we can talk about that, but that's kind of like the next step that I want to take. But I um if you have a mentor, if you're working with people, like if you're working one-on-one with people, couples, wherever, you have to have someone who's more experienced than you where you can take difficult cases to them and how and have them help you help the other person. I don't I don't understand how people can be in practice helping people on a one-on-one basis and not have um a mentor of some sort. I mean, I I'm coming back to this, but that's really what people should be most concerned about is who's teaching you, who's helping you, who's keeping you accountable as someone who is um working with the most delicate part of a person's life, which is their relationships.
SPEAKER_04Right. Yeah, I would say it's it's probably pretty hard for a lot of coaches and therapists and counselors to have like let's say out of their own therapy, meaning their own interpersonal therapy, to have mentors because you have limited time, right? You have family, you have you know relationships, you have kids maybe, and then you're working, right? Which is you're like serving people. So how do you how do you how do you figure like that works out into into like the work-life balance equation?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I don't even I can't even wrap my head even around that question. It's like a core like this is either you're like dedicated to being the best that you can be for others or you're not.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02You make your time for things that are important.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, for sure.
Mentoring The Mentors At Scale
SPEAKER_04So tell me about the mentor project you you have brainstorming, like where where is this at and what do you envision it turning into?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, I just uh I would love to be a mentor for people who are maybe therapists and coaches who want to learn more about the way that I teach and uh looking into kind of creating a mentorship program or like a certificate certification program. Um yeah, I just uh I wanna spread, I want to really help people help people. I want to help the people who want to help others and help them do it in a really, really um uh effective way.
SPEAKER_04What does that look like? Is that like online courses? Is it one-on-one time? Like how do you envision that?
SPEAKER_02No, I think it might be more like a schooling type thing, but I'm I'm in the process of figuring that out. Cool. In the process of figuring that out, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay, I dig that. That's cool. What what like made you think of this? I mean, I know you've kind of always been in that vein of work, but this is like a new project after the book, right? Was this sort of in the back of your mind for a while?
SPEAKER_02Or this has been in the back of my mind for a couple of years, and more and more people are wanting it, and um I think that also as more and more people are calling themselves coaches and experts and stuff like that. I think you know, why not create some sort of schooling for them? That's actually really great. And there are a lot of people who want to help others, and so yeah, I just I would love to help people I feel I I really like going back to primarily at the core, helping people with their relationship with themselves. What better way to help someone with their relationship with themselves than to help them step into their passion or their purpose?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
The Coach Boom And Standing Out
SPEAKER_04Do you think like the the industry has grown quite a bit, especially during COVID, right? People are like, they'll just straight up call themselves a coach or a holistic spiritual healer or something else outside outside of therapy, right? So like maybe they don't have an MS in mental health counseling or LMFT or whatever, but they'll just sit, they'll just put it in their Instagram bio and they'll start filming themselves and start talking about things, right? Um, for better or for worse.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04Do you think like one of my concerns with that as a career choice is that people don't understand one, how flooded the market is and how hard it is to actually make a living doing it. And now you're doing it to serve others, yes, but you still have to make money, you still have to make a living, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's why I want to help them make a living, actually.
SPEAKER_04So do you think that there's, I guess, uh a capacity, like a limit that we'll reach in that industry? You know what I mean? Like, like we need tons of nurses and doctors and people, and then now we think I think about like coaches or relationship experts, like how many do we actually need?
SPEAKER_02And do you think there's a I think it's all I think it's all in marketing, I think it's all in who you actually want to help. I think it's all in your style. I think like any other industry, you've got people who are mediocre, and then you've got people who are extraordinary.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And, you know, and sometimes the people who are mediocre are making even more money. You know, I think it's just a matter of I yes, it's a saturated market. And I think it's like any saturated market, it's all about like how can you stand out and who exactly do you want to help, and how do you want to help them? Like, you know, you you you and what kind of life you want to you want to have. Some people just want to do it on the side. Some people don't need to make, you know, they're set financially, but this is like their passion. Other people, they want to make a lot of money doing it, so therefore they have to be much, you know, they can't just do one-on-one. Some people have connections with celebrities and they'll do it with celebrities. So I think there's yes, agreed, but there's but there's always sort of like a way, and I think that um, yeah, I think there's always, I think there's I think there's a way.
SPEAKER_04I think the reason I ask is because you you notice this too. Like now I try to stay off social media, honestly. I I really do try to just post it and get off it now. Um for most things, just personally, I feel like a happier person. Um but when I'm on there, I feel like every, and it's probably because of obviously the industry I'm in, but I feel like every third profile come about, it's like a spiritual holistic coach or relationship coach, or and there'll be someone that has 20 followers or 20,000 followers, it doesn't matter, you know, but somewhat in their sort of initial stages. Right, everyone's doing it, right? And so I'm wondering like, is that attracting people that really truly want to help others and change themselves, or is it just like an opportunist, like an opportunivore mindset? Like, oh, like I can see that this is working for other people, they seem to be traveling the world, living a good life, you know, getting on podcasts.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I don't know. I think you can ask that question for anything. I'm sure a lot of people are doing it because they want to do it.
SPEAKER_04Yes, you're right, and I agree with you. You can't ask for anything, but this this like I would I would say I don't want to say job because there's a lot of different jobs in this like identity, but this sort of job in particular is really unique in the fact that it really focuses on the deepest parts of the human experience or deepest traumas where you're hiding. So it's it's different than like flying a plane or being a cop or that's why you need a hard.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly full circle.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you can you can really hurt someone's life, like you were saying, do no harm. Like I love that, right? And and even people with multiple PhDs and side D's can really do damage to people's lives, and they have, right?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely can, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And that's why I think this is such a poignant conversation because right now I I feel like there's a lot of stuff on the internet just selling all these different ideas, right?
SPEAKER_02And it's like what's gonna happen is that there's gonna be a lot of regulations that are gonna be happening and all this. I mean, we'll time time will tell.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02You know, time will tell. And there's a difference between someone who's calling themselves someone, something and versus are they actually doing the work and do they actually have any clients?
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02I mean, how can you really call yourself a coach if you haven't never had a client? I don't know,
How To Vet A Practitioner
SPEAKER_02you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, how do we tell the difference then, Jillian, from someone who's doing the work to someone who's not? What what are some things we should look out for?
SPEAKER_02You mean if you're seeking out a practitioner?
SPEAKER_04I'm seeking out a practitioner, yeah. Let's see, like they're posting stuff, you know, they're writing things. What are some behaviors? What are maybe some things you're looking for?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I think you're looking for trust more than anything else. Um, I, you know, I huh. I think first and foremost, you just want to know that they have some experience, that they've worked with some people before. And I know when I had no experience, I did a lot of coaching for free. And I was very transparent. Like, I'm just starting out here. So I want to invite you to this coaching conversation. It's gonna cost you nothing. I'm gonna invite you to this free thing. So that's that's how I started.
SPEAKER_04Free sessions with Gillian Treky, man, let's let's rewind time. Let's get us all back there.
SPEAKER_02You know, we're going back, you know, over 11 years. But I, you know, and it's like when I first started teaching yoga and working with people, it's like, okay, yeah, I'll come to your home that's like you know, 45 minutes away and you know, totally gonna take like four hours out of my day and charge you 50 bucks, and I live in New York City. Like, you know, I did all that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Do you think that's even possible now though? Because with with how expensive life is, like, I feel like that's that's why people are looking to do it quickly.
SPEAKER_02I know, but but you can't do anything quickly, you can't do anything meaningful quickly. You're not, there's no overnight success type stuff. There just isn't.
SPEAKER_04So let me rephrase the question because I think this it came to mind, and I think it would be better. If someone were to come out of your mentor program, what would be some of the attributes you would want them to leave with? And then we can view that from like if I'm a person trying to hire a coach or a counselor, what would I be, you know, like what would I see from someone leaving your program on a on a general level? I know it's different because people human beings are well, they would be well trained.
SPEAKER_02You would know that they were well trained and you know that they worked with me and um I mean someone who's non-judgmental, someone who's compassionate, someone who, when you have a conversation with them, they offer you an insight that you haven't heard that you haven't considered before. Those are the those are the most important things for sure. Someone who's professional, they you know, you make it they show up when they say they're going to show up. Um someone who has professional boundaries too. You can't just text them whenever you want or anything like that. So these are some of the things that are gonna that are gonna be sort of like the baseline.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Does it at the end of the day, does it matter if after a conversation with this person you are looking at something totally different and you feel better? I mean, didn't that person, that coach or therapist, didn't they actually do their job well if that's the result?
SPEAKER_04And I would even take that a step further. Sometimes you're not gonna feel better, right? Because I think sometimes good coaches do allow you to like see yourself in a light where like I find this a lot in my practice where someone will start to criticize a past partner or a past um uh you know, husband or wife or something like that, or parent.
SPEAKER_02Can I just can I just interrupt one second?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I know maybe not feel better, but but have an insight into themselves that they hadn't considered before. Yes, yes, and have and now they're like looking at the circumstance differently.
SPEAKER_04Right. I like I like that because feel because we always our brains always want to feel comfortable, and sometimes you have to be very uncomfortable with what you've been doing to grow, right?
SPEAKER_02And it's not all the time because totally very resistant to feeling better, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And and I think that's that's one like I think about asking myself the question of what would I look for? I'm like, I want someone that really is living by example, like they're holding themselves accountable, not only as a practitioner, but as a person. I can see that through the screen, even if I don't meet them in person. And I know that if I'm in the room with them and I'm explaining them things, they're not just trying to see it through their lens. They're they're really trying to sort of orchestrate everything that's happening as best as they can, and that takes a really skilled practitioner, and then show me like perhaps a different view on the reality that I'm interpreting, you know, because it's that's really it, it's interpretation of circumstance. And a lot of times we have a lot of implicit bias in that interpretation because of our history, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think that's the thing that's really beautiful about a lot of the things you talk about is, and I appreciate you you try really hard to take a very nuanced perspective from different angles. And I think you can get a lot of following now on social media, rah-rind one side or rah-rind one sort of ideal, you know, and then everyone can just like cancel culture and all those things, like, yes, like this is my person. And we forget that like it's like following, it's like idolizing something because we feel very safe with it, versus like you have compassion, but you also very much challenge our belief systems and our structures about relationship and our self-identity within that relationship. Um because what you're saying is like, hey, if you don't figure yourself out, no one is gonna come save you. You're certainly not gonna be happy in a container relationship if you don't have some sort of peace before you enter it, right? And then on the other side, like you don't want to be in a relationship that's stealing your peace either, you know, and that's just as big of the conversation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02There's a lot of nuance to relationships, it's not black or white, you know? And yeah, that's uh it's just not.
Dating Apps And The Gender Divide
SPEAKER_02Um I think there's also a lot out there on the j I really the gender war, the you know, men and women just hating on each other online is really depressing to me. Super depressing close that gap. I mean You know, are there a lot of emotionally unavailable men on dating apps? Yeah. And it's like, okay, because there's just yes, you know, I mean, there's a lot of men who need to uh who are not in uh in touch with themselves emotionally in any way, shape, or form, but there's also a lot of manipulative women out there. I mean, you know, so there's just a lot of sure, there are things that are that are problematic, but when I see things like I mean, it's just so crazy. You can share someone can share something on social media and like all the men will have one perspective, and all the women will have a different perspective, yeah. And no one is thinking critically.
SPEAKER_04So um no one's thinking empathically either, and and I want to touch on that because there are a lot of men that have a bunch of problems in Denny apps, but as a single heterosexual man who's spent a lot of time on Denny Apps, there are a ton of women that are emotionally unstable, emotionally volatile, that use keywords like self-awareness and emotional compatibility, and uh the way they speak to men. The way they speak to men on dating apps are abhorrent, just as bad as what men say. It's just they treat men like they just treat me like shit, like they treat men like dogs, you know? They treat men with no respect. And and I know men do the same thing to women, and I think that's oh yeah, they absolutely do. I know they do because I'm a man, I've seen it happen, but I but I do think women need to understand like women speak that way to men too in different ways, right? Oh, until we start respecting each other, and really that respect has to come from a deep level of self-awareness, of like understanding, like, hey, I've caused pain, I've been hurt, but like just because someone like a man or woman hurt me doesn't mean everyone's dangerous of that gender. Like there are people I will connect with. Like, two things that I recommend to people that are my clients is like one, uh go sit next to a friend that has a dating app that's like of the gender that you're attracted to, and look at like look at some of the conversations they're having, look at some of the profiles that come by, right? And meaning, like if you're if you're a heterosexual female, go sit next to you know a male friend and see some of the conversations they're having with women, right? You'll be very surprised. And you'll probably have more compassion empathy for men in their experience. And that might actually allow you to communicate better, and vice versa for men. Go make female friends and sit next to them while they're swiping or having conversations, and and you'll if your heart doesn't open up after that, you're doing it wrong. You know, it it really should give you more empathy for like the realities of the conversations people are having.
SPEAKER_02Um, yes, and then I have to wrap it up, but I wanted to say one thing though.
Safety Lies And Married Daters
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which is this I agree with you wholeheartedly. The only caveat that I want to add to this is there are a disproportionately greater amount of men on dating apps who are married. Interesting looking for someone and not and not sharing that. So women do women have to be careful for two reasons on dating apps. Number one, there are predators, they're male predators, and they're you women always have to be mindful of their physical safety in a way that men do not. This is just something that women have to be, and then also there's just there's um the amount of times women have written to me saying, Yeah, I met this great guy and I found out he was totally married and I was gonna be like his double life. This is not the norm, but these are things. This is just the one caveat that I will add where women really have to be very mindful of.
SPEAKER_04So you think there are far more men that are married on dating apps than women that are married?
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04I'm curious to see that statistic because I I like I've seen so many married women on dating apps too, hiding shit.
SPEAKER_02I'm sure they are there.
SPEAKER_04For sure. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think just people lie. People like they're in shitty relationships and they're hiding and they're looking for attention to validate their experience so they can kind of like take a little dopamine hit away from whatever is bothering them.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, absolutely. I think, yes, yeah, for sure. I do hear on the safety. More women have affairs on their spouses than men do statistically. But I do think that more men statistically are looking for an outlet on a dating app than a woman is.
SPEAKER_04Interesting. Okay, huh? That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02We can continue that conversation another time. Do we have to? Yeah, we we have to. All right,
Final Thoughts And Thanks
SPEAKER_02let's do it.
SPEAKER_04I'll get you another three years.
SPEAKER_02No, sooner than that.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Well, Gillian, thank you for chatting with me today. Again, and it was short and brief, but I always appreciate your time. And it's good to see you. You look like glowing as ever. You look like you're happy, you're doing well, and that's good to see, my friend, like you. You're a special person.
SPEAKER_02So thank you, Nico. I appreciate it so much. And I always love our conversations because I feel like they we talk about other things that no other podcasters talk about with me. And so it's always so interesting to have a chat with you.