Starve the Ego Feed the Soul
Starve the Ego Feed the Soul
Lessons On Grief with Cassidie Carmen Bates, MPP
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We talk with grief researcher and bereavement policy specialist Cassidie Carmen Bates about why most workplaces are not built for loss, even though grief affects the brain, body, and performance. We unpack what “grief-informed” support looks like in real companies, and how better bereavement leave can improve retention while also protecting employees in their hardest season.
Links to Cassidie's work:
https://www.cassidiecarmenbates.com/
https://www.thesoulexecutor.com/
Topics covered during the show:
• why Cassidie moves from public policy into grief research after losing her dad at 25
• what “grief-informed” bereavement leave means beyond paid time off
• the US bereavement leave landscape and why many workers get about three unpaid days
• how manager training and workplace culture shape a bereaved employee’s experience
• employee loyalty and retention when companies support the acute phase of grief
• what goes wrong when leaders are dismissive and how that harm sticks
• the executor burden and how estate responsibilities can delay grieving
• grief in the body, delayed responses, and why compartmentalizing is not sustainable
• how Cassidie balances lived experience with research objectivity
• a gentle framework for what can actually help someone who is grieving
As always, if you guys dig the episode, if you dig any of the episodes, please leave Starve the Ego, Feed the Soul, a five-star written review on Apple and Spotify Podcasts. If you could do both, that'd be lovely.
Warmly,
Nico Barraza
@FeedTheSoulNB
www.nicobarraza.com
Welcome And Why Grief Research
SPEAKER_00Hey everybody, welcome back. This week's guest is someone that researches grief and on a handful of different levels. Now, I've spoken about grief with fellow therapists, counselors, psychologists on the show, but I really wanted to get someone on the show that focuses on researching grief. And um Cassidy Carmen Bates firstly popped propped up on Instagram like most guests do. And um she was talking about the grieving process and how people grieve differently. And she was talking about her background in grief research. So I sent her people a message and I was like, hey, I would love to have uh Cece on the show to talk about her research, talk about her own experience of grief, what got her into this research, and she agreed to, and so here we are launching this episode. And I just want to say thank you to Cassidy for coming on the show. Um, so she has a master's in public policy, is a researcher specializing in grief and bereavement policy. Her work specifically explores how grief impacts the brain and the body and how these insights can be best interpreted through a policy lens to create bereavement leaf structures that are both pro-employer and pro-employee, especially for those with fiduciary responsibilities to their loved ones' state. Now, Cassidy has a has a TEDx talk. Um, I'll throw the link to that in the in the show notes. I'll throw the link to her um to her website and her company's sole executor. Uh we have a great conversation, um, obviously, particularly around grief, but around her uh experience of losing her dad when she was 25 years old and and how that um propelled her into um having to deal with estate planning all alone and you know be like just doing the like dealing with these things at a very young age through the throughout the grieving process that almost don't even allow you to grieve immediately because you have to handle all these financial and fiduciary responsibilities too. Um we talk about like defining grief. Um, we talk about uh a policy in the United States, particularly around leave, bereavement leave, and how that impacts um someone's uh what's allegiance or um you know how how someone feels about their job or their workplace. Um yeah, we we have a super just intricate conversation around a lot of things. Grief, you guys know that I'm very passionate about talking about grief and death, uh, almost I would say to like an obsessive level because I feel like we don't speak about it enough, particularly in Western culture, particularly in the US. Um, so yeah, I just, you know, again, thank you to Cassidy for coming on the show, sharing some time with me. Uh as always, if you guys dig the episode, if you dig any of the episodes, please leave Starve the Ego, Feed the Soul, a five-star written review on Apple and Spotify Podcasts. If you could do both, that'd be lovely. Um, again, it just helps the show get in front of more eyes and ears. And yeah, I appreciate you being here wherever you guys are, whether you're driving to work, uh, you know, before you're going to sleep or wherever you are in the world, thank you for being here. Um, your like listenership is appreciated. I hope you leave um the show and the episodes with things that are tangible to hopefully improve your life and the people around you. Um, so thanks for being here and let's get to the show. CeCe, thank you for joining me on Star of the Ego Feed the Soul. Um, we did have a great 40-minute discussion a couple days ago. Um, first time this has ever happened, but I didn't click record. We were busy talking for like 40 minutes. It was an amazing recording. So we're gonna try to re-emulate that right now. Um, so I just want to say thanks for your patience, and I'm excited to talk to you today.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to you as well. And I'm happy to see the red record symbol above us. We're off to a good start.
SPEAKER_00We're good. Absolutely. So um, you know, I I did a little intro obviously for the show, talked about some of the work you do, but I was first introduced to your work on Instagram. I think it was an ad that came up for me that was about um grief and the grieving process. And particularly I was interested in having you on because I've had therapists, I've had psychologists on the show, and I've worked in grief too as a counselor, working with many clients on grief. Um, but you particularly research grief in like a research setting, right? And can you speak a little bit about your background? What got you into that? How you ended up studying grief research?
SPEAKER_03That's a great question. And there's always a very standard reaction I get when I tell people I research grief because there is a connotation that comes with it that this is going to be really sad, heavy research. And of course, there is that element to it. Um, but to answer your question, my entire career has been in public policy. I specifically have seen through my work that the best public policies, in my opinion, come from when they are informed by those that those policies would would serve and would directly impact. And when I was in grad school, it really was an opportunity for me to reflect on what had my most profound lived experiences been, if that's what I think the best policy is born from. And where I came back to is that the sudden loss of my dad when I was 25 and serving as his sole executor was not only such a fundamental shift in my own life, but it really demonstrated to me just how little infrastructure we have to support grievers, especially in the workplace, that that is the
What Grief-Informed Policies Actually Mean
SPEAKER_03impetus for me transitioning into grief research.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, again, thank you for sharing about your dad and how that kind of inspired you, pushed you into this career. You know, we we spoke offline about this, and it was it was really interesting to me because I having worked in grief a good amount, um, the the term bereavement and the process of that on like the workforce level and the and the company level, I've never really considered outside of being like my my own interpersonal life within how it affects that. And that's a lot of the work you do, right? Is to kind of advocate and do to sort of like understand, you know, what is a good bereavement process. And you you work with companies and corporations. Can you explain like to the to the public, you know, how how do you go about quantifying what makes sense in terms of like bereavement and what how that looks like in in corporate America, you know, like what what is like good enough and then what what's falling short?
SPEAKER_03That's a great question. And I would preface the answer with there is no one size fits all approach. What's going to work for a large corporation is likely not going to be financially solvent for a locally owned mom and pop business, if you will. And so there are what my research would find as model bereavement policies, as they're reflective of what the subject matter data is telling us grievers need. It's reflective of the lived experience of grievers. Uh, anecdotally, what people have said, this is what's was supportive of me during my bereavement, or this is what I could have used more of. Some of those model policies, I'll mention Adobe, Levi Strauss, great bereavement leave. And they have the resources to provide paid time off to their employees. So, really, what my research looks at, and when I work with organizations, what we're looking at is what is this concept of grief informed? The way I define that is not only is it strongly influenced by the lived experience of grievers, those who who know grief have been through it, had to access bereavement leave, but it also takes into account what the research tells us is happening to our brains and bodies when we are grieving, and how does that impact us at work? And when a policy, a bereavement policy is grief informed, that doesn't just mean paid time off. It can mean what is your workplace culture? How is leadership at that company trained to interact with a bereaved employee? So there are a lot of different ways that we can look at bereavement policies and how to make them more grief informed within that company's means and resources.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes sense. Would you say, I know I we we've spoken about this a little bit, but would you say that like the the change, like the actual, I would say like inertia of change around bereavement is going because you work at public policy level. Would you say corporations are gonna lead that because people are requesting it before public policy actually changes to address it, to sort of force corporations to fall into line with a certain bereavement standard?
SPEAKER_03It's an interesting question because I think there are multiple theories of change of how this could best be achieved. And at the same time, I do not think we are in a political climate where bereavement leave is going to be one of the top federal priorities we see. I think there's a lot of competing interests on a policy level at this time in our country. And so, with all that being said, there are a handful of states that are that have state level bereavement policy. Some states it only applies to employees in their public sector, some in their private sector. As of my most recent research publication, I believe there are five states that have a state-level bereavement leave, which is great. That is progress. But all that is to say, because there's such a lack of bereavement leave, there's no federal mandate that the federal government is telling states or companies they have to provide it. And because only a handful of states offer it, for a vast majority of Americans, they are living in states where there's no mandated bereavement leave. So you're truly at the mercy of whatever organization you work at at the time when you happen to experience a loss. And more often than not, employers are not mandated to give you that. We do see a standard norm of about three days unpaid leave for immediate family members. Um, but to the second part of your question of what will push public policy to get there, I am encouraged by just this general increase of grief literacy to put it simply that I think we're more comfortable talking about grief. And I think our youngest generations, as we see Gen Z and millennials get into more leadership in the workforce, there is a comfort level and an appetite to talk about these things that really do impact us at work because our grief does not just show up before 8 a.m. and after 5 p.m. And it doesn't come to work. That that I think is very outdated rhetoric that grief is not safe for work.
SPEAKER_00You know, with so much work focused on like the policy behind bereavement and grief. Do you also research like the process of grief, like the grieving process and how that differs from each individual's experience?
SPEAKER_03Yes. And I would say so much amazing work already exists on that from other researchers. Yeah. And grief I see as a very interdisciplinary field where there are folks from medicine and psychiatry and all these other different fields that touch this work. So I don't want the research I do to be duplicative, but in order to best do my research, I have reviewed and incorporated a lot of what is existing out there. And yeah, different grieving styles is definitely a part of that. Um, only thing I would say from that is what I always try to stress in my work is that no two grief journeys are going to be the same. It's so highly personal. What works for one person might not be the best course of action for someone else. And that's why I think it's so tricky to give advice when it comes to grief because everyone's situation is so different and the attachment you had to the person you lost is so nuanced.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I would say, you know, someone who's worked in that counseling setting, it's it is really difficult to give advice. And it's hard to balance the line of just like holding space for someone grieving versus giving like maybe some tidbits of desirable action that might help them grieve or help them process it. But as you sort of alluded to, there's no there's no like right or wrong speed, I think. I think what I notice a lot of our culture doing is like we tend to like to distract ourselves and avoid, and that can be healthy to an extent, but obviously too much of it can like prevent grieving. But to your point, you know, I think the argument can be made, like everyone is on their own grief journey, like you said. With with that being said, like the reason I brought that up is because how that relates to bereavement policy and different companies deciding on what's good for individuals, it it's tough, right? Because like there's so many different individuals that grieve different lengths. Maybe one person might be okay with like seven days and someone you know might be grieving way longer. So how do you how do you go about as someone who's like deep within like the public policy and the construct of of what is what should be acceptable? Like, how do you go about setting a baseline, you know, like in your mind for like what you're recommending? Like how do you get to that step?
SPEAKER_03Oh, I love that question because oh, so many thoughts come up. We could go so many directions with that. I think the biggest thing is for it to come back to that concept of what is grief informed. And part of understanding what a policy or work pre workplace practice could be
Bereavement Leave Reality In The US
SPEAKER_03for it to be quantified as grief informed is to understand that grief is so nuanced and it's not gonna look the same for any two employees. With that being said, there are some grieving styles where they are going, where that person will have a tendency to want to get to back, want to get back to work quickly. And for some folks, taking ample time off that might be the most helpful and healing thing. So for leaders of people and organizations that are looking to evaluate their bereavement lead policies, I would say set a baseline that feels adequate in the sense that it can give folks enough time in that acute phase of grief where the research backs up employees needing the most amount of support in that acute phase. But also part of that grief-informed culture is having leadership that's able to check in with their staff and say, what are you needing? Do you want to come back to work? And would it be helpful? Okay, let's find a way to you know bring you back. Or, okay, you need more time off. What does that look like? Or how can we have you back at work? But have our team be really aware of what you're going through. And it's gonna look different everywhere.
SPEAKER_00That so that opens a really interesting part of this conversation, which is like the idea of empathy at the workplace, but like curiosity too. Cause what I find is, I mean, many, many people around, you know, that I'm close friends with that I've grown up with in their like early to mid 30s, who have been in the corporate world for a while, um, you know, if something happens in the workplace, what I've noticed is, and this I'm generalizing, but this is I feel like this has come up a lot where their uh supervisor or boss or whoever, whatever level the corporate structure they're at, will uh, you know, sort of show that, like, hey, I'm sorry you're going through this, but that's where like it stops, right? It's it's rarely like a go deeper, how are you feeling? You know, what can I do to support you? You know, what do you need from us or the team? It's rare, it rarely goes to that level. And I I think it's almost like before there's like a healthy bereavement plan, there also needs to be like empathetic leadership, too, because I feel like, like you said, you have to kind of check in and see what someone's someone needs because someone might not need as much time as somebody else, but you have to be like a curious leader in that way and also have the resources to give them support too. I think some leaders maybe don't have those resources from the company. It's a it's a trickle-down theory, right? But in your mind, in terms of like uh bereavement, I guess would being executed on a level, like uh do you see that that's like directly correlated with uh like like empathetic leadership too, or or are those things like separate in your mind and bereavement leave is merely like a policy thing at the at the workforce, and someone can either take it or not take it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you bring up a good point with uh empathy because the friction that I see in the bereavement space at times can come from employers not wanting to feel like there's something they're being mandated to offer. And within that, they need to remain financially solvent. And so the policy recommendations that come from my research really try to balance what is both pro-employer and pro-employee, because both have to coexist. In an ideal world, yes, every leader would be empathetic, every organization would have high morale, great employee loyalty, all of these things that we should continually strive for and take that into account with just what the current circumstances are, and that we have to try our best to manage employees' bereavement experiences as they are happening today. So, within that, what I would say is yes, part of it empathetic leadership, and it comes back to that lived experience element of if a leader themselves has not gone through a grief experience, they just might not know what that employee is going through. When I lost my dad, I had no idea that a human could experience that level of heartbreak. Yeah. I did not know you could experience that much pain from the emotions of what you were going through. And so that's made me more empathetic in how I move through the world. But if an if a leader has not gone through that, that is where these conversations are so important of trying to bridge that gap from those who maybe don't have that lived experience, or maybe they do, and for whatever reason, it is not transformed in a way where it translates into that policy. Um, but that's where that storytelling, that anecdotal is so pivotal.
SPEAKER_00You know what? I so resonate with you saying like it has to be a lived experience on some level, because like I feel like I've always been a very empathy-driven person or empathic or like being able to feel people's feelings. It's probably from my own childhood, you know, uh for good and for bad. Um, well, it is from my own childhood for sure. But I have noticed that even like uh, you know, dealing with chronic chronic pain since I've had all these surgeries, like I don't think I ever would have been able to attain as much empathy or as much awareness as I have around people that are suffering in deep physical pain if I didn't have to as well. You know, it it sort of like opens a doorway, you walk through and you you can't there's no backwards, you know. Um you you know what it is. And I think that you bring up a really good point. I think, particularly in um capitalism and corporate structures in the West, it's that I feel like, and again, subjective opinion on my end, but like I feel like the best leaders have those sort of experiences and have walked through them. And they that that's because they they can hold space, they can imply, you know, um, I don't know, just like more empathy in those situations. But there's a caveat there is I know I do have I have seen people have lost and experienced that, and they they still keep their personal experience separate from their professional life, right? And so like they're they might have grieved in a personal setting, but in a professional life, they still keep that kind of like I don't know what it is just like the facade, that facade of like, you know, like leadership where like you you have to like kind of keep it together versus like show empathy and sit, you know. And I feel like that that is in my mind kind of directly correlated to why bereavement is such so lacking a lot of times, because we kind of it's like that separation of church and state for lack of a better thing, but separation of like empathy and productivity within the workplace. Like, well, we can't have good leadership if we're too close with our workers. And I don't believe in that, you know. I think that like that that calls people to actually feel more in alignment with their workspace, with their leadership, and more for this word you use uh when I talked to you in the past is loyalty. And can you talk a little bit about that concept? Because you brought up how one of the selling points sometimes is like, you know, if you look at the data, it looks like companies that have good bereavement policy that show that kind of respect for loss and for grief for their employees tend to have more loyalty too, which is an interesting concept.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I'd love to talk about this. And this is something that I think for anyone in leadership, or even if you just have one direct report, this is really a key thing in that from a recruitment standpoint for employees when you are in the hiring. Process, it can be a really attractive benefit to see that when and if they go through a loss, they can access the time off that they need, or even if you can't provide ample paid leave. And again, I'm not suggesting people get unlimited time or anything like that, because at some point the grief, we're not going to get through our grief within a bereavement period and then come back to work all better. Grief, I think, is a lifelong process of integrating what is this new version of me? There's no going back to the version of me that existed prior to this loss, especially with such a profound loss. But how can we support this employee through the most acute phase of their grief when they are needing us to rally around them the most? And what the research findings back up is that if an organization is able to support an employee through that most acute phase, and there's some variation in what that timeline looks like, but it's generally that first six months post-loss, then the research findings back up that that employee will have greater loyalty to the company because they feel such a sense of gratitude that they were supported
Empathy At Work And Manager Training
SPEAKER_03through one of their greatest times of need. And final thing I'll say on that is there are going to be different types of loss. If someone loses a primary attachment of theirs versus someone who might be a couple of degrees removed from them, those are different bereavement experiences. And I don't think a workplace should treat them in the same way. But that is where that nuance and that conversation with your staff and your team of what is it that you are needing and how can we find a way that makes this work for both of us? Yeah, that is so meaningful. And that is something that employee will remember for the rest of their life. I can't even tell you how many folks I've interviewed for my research who have had poor bereavement leave experiences. And the first thing they want to tell me is, this is what my boss said to me. I left the company immediately. Or this has been one of the most hurtful parts of the grief experience was how leadership treated me and I never respected them again. And so folks will really, that will resonate with them, how they were treated during their grief.
SPEAKER_00Well, they don't, they don't forget that because they associate that treatment with um not respecting and not having empathy for the trauma they're experiencing, which I completely understand, right? So I would I I like that you you brought this in because I was gonna ask you, because we just spoke about the benefits of having good bereavement leave and listening to your employees. Can you talk a little bit about some of these interviews and the um, let's say the uh like the negative things that have come from not having good bereavement leave or not having an empathetic leadership? Like, can you talk about some of those conversations? Because I think those are just as vital to chat about as like, hey, this is the positive part. Well, what's the negative part if you don't actually change the policy? You don't actually meet people where they are.
SPEAKER_03High level, I would say for the employees, it is that they no longer feel appreciated, seen, valued in that workplace because this is their greatest time of need. And if their needs cannot be met within reason, it is very hard to move through that and get to a place where you are all bought in on that mission and you feel like you as a human are respected and you want to show up there. On the employer level, you're losing employees. And again, within that, let's it's different if you had someone on your staff for two weeks versus five years when they go through the loss. So again, there's no one size fits all. But generally, what I like to tell companies and organizations is that this is such a kind and respectful benefit to offer. And at the same time, you are not likely to have a majority of your employees accessing this benefit, but it is such an amazing safety net to offer. It is unlikely that a majority of your staff will all experience a profound loss at the same time and all need to access this kind of bereavement leave. But for one or a handful of your staff members, when they go through that most incredible loss of their life, if they can be supported through it within reason and then brought back into work in a way that is grief informed, that has that's a pivotal moment in their life. That's a pivotal season where they were supported by their workplace. And I had that. I had an incredibly supportive briefing experience. And years later, I still sing the praises of that workplace, even though I'm no longer there. And if someone ever asks me about that organization, that is the first thing I say because they showed up for me when I needed it the most. And they were not mandated to, but they was just good leadership.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Yeah, that that's that makes or make makes or break an experience, I think, in in the corporate culture. So now, like you just you just sort of alluded to, you you're working in this industry and now you're you're doing a handful of things, but you travel a ton. Like, what is your what is your day-to-day now look like? Like as a grief research researcher, as someone who's going around giving talks about this, like who is calling upon you to come, like what does that look like? Like you share with people, like what are you, what are you doing right now?
SPEAKER_03No two days look the same. Yeah. And I love that. Um on some days it looks like I am just all in on research. Um, you might just find me at a coffee shop with my computers doing all of the griefy research, reading books, articles about grief, interviewing folks about their experience. Other days there are conferences, talking, or breakout sessions on what grief in the workplace can look like. Um and outside of the research and working on sharing that research, one thing I love the most is working one-on-one with organizations to evaluate what their bereavement lead policies are, how grief-informed they currently are, and what are their unique set of resources within that? How can we make their workplace more grief-informed? Um, final thing I'll mention is recently on the anniversary of my dad's passing, I launched my newest company, Soul Executor, which provides one-on-one estate navigation support for those who are estate executors, trustees, or another type of fiduciary to really ensure that they have the support they need to navigate that process in a really wraparound, comprehensive way, that is also grief informed. So no two days look the same, and I love it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it seems like a super dynamic like profession, honestly, if we can, you're right. Um, would you mind, you know, because you you've talked about the loss of your father and how that really kind of lit like the fire to this, you know, work you do. Can you talk a little bit about that personal experience if you don't mind sharing with us? And like you said you were 26, incredibly young, right? To lose primary caregiver you grew up with. Well, can you talk a little bit about that, that grieving experience and maybe the different like waves of it and and how that morphed into you know you being on this show now and talking about his his anniversary, you know, because that was some time ago.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you for asking. So I lost my dad suddenly when I was 25. And I, my dad and I were best friends. This was an incredibly unexpected loss. I had talked on the phone with him on Saturday. A few hours later, I get a call from an unknown number and it's an emergency room doctor calling to say, I'm so sorry your dad is gone, and to talk about waves of grief. The initial wave, absolute denial. I just thought, nope, this doctor has the wrong Cassidy Carmen, or they have not done anything. And if I get to the hospital, there's gonna be something I can do to fix this because there's there's no way he was fine two hours ago. How can you be dead now? Um unfortunately that that was the case. He he did pass away suddenly. And so not only at 25 am I all of a sudden grieving the loss of my dad, but my dad wasn't married when he passed, and I am his only child. And so I also became sole executor of the estate. And it was completely overwhelming. It was one of the most challenging things I've gone through. Um going back to the bereavement of it all. I one of my first calls was actually to my boss at the time. And there's more I can say on that of how quickly a bereaved individual thinks I need to inform my workplace before we can really start to feel the feelings of the grief. But my workplace was phenomenal. And they just said, Cassidy, you have been great as an employee for years, whatever you need. And they meant it. At the same time, I could also, it was more of an intuitive feeling than anything. I knew that that grace and flexibility I was being given was not going to last forever. It was somewhat time-bound. And so I felt this sense of let me compartmentalize the actual grieving and just figure out this executorship and settle the estate. I ended up taking nearly three months of bereavement, which is unheard of in this country. Um, what it was was an accumulation of PTO and sick time that I had just accrued and not used over the years, but they let me do that and they did not have to. I moved into my dad's home in Nevada, which was a different state from where I lived at the time, and really became my full-time job to figure out what is a death certificate, how do I get one? What do I do with his remains? Am I having a service? How do I plan that? What am I doing with his home, his belongings, all of the things. Final thing I'll say on this to answer
Loyalty, Retention, And The Cost
SPEAKER_03your question about waves of grief. I, alongside just a few very close humans, really figured out in a self-taught way how to settle an estate, did that in about three months. I moved back to California where I was living at the time, went back to work. And as soon as I got back to work and the estate was largely taken care of, I started having all of these health issues that none of my doctors could figure out. And they just kept saying, Well, we could try this medication or that medication. We don't really know what's going on with you. My response to them was always, I can tell you what's going on. I am like deeply depressed. I'm not okay. I couldn't eat. I was below 100 pounds and I'm almost 5'10. There's like no world where being under a hundred pounds is healthy. And it was just the grief absolutely living inside of my body and manifesting. So, all that is to say, the way that I compartmentalized, yes, it allowed me to really efficiently settle in a state and get back to work, but it led to health challenges that for years I had to unravel and really understand just how much unprocessed grief lives in us. And that's not healthy either. So there's there's a level of compartmentalization that can help you get through it, but it's not sustainable long term.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes total sense to me as someone who's had a lot of grief from a young age, is that, and it's it's hard to know where that line is, you know, because I because you're right, there's absolutely a necessity for compartmentalization and healthy distraction. And I use the word healthy sort of in quotes, because again, it's subjective based on the experience, but there is like a level where you can use something that's really healthy to escape even feeling anything. And I mean, I did that with sport and running and like working out, you know. Um, and I I think you know no matter what, is someone who's worked again in with so many different individuals on grief, whether that be a divorce or losing someone to death or losing their job or what have you, a handful of different things or their animal. Um it'll it'll catch up with you eventually at some point. Yeah, right. I mean, it always does. And if if it doesn't, and you just hide it forever, then it starts to sort of take away a little bit of your I I just want to see maybe your like your life force, like your your energy, you know, because you there's like this piece of you that you like been fighting with to accept or to you know even just like witness or realize, you know, about an experience that you had that you might not be. And I feel like in some forms it becomes like a like this thing of like PTSD a little bit, right? Where like it's this thing that comes up and we know it's there, but then we we feel powerless or we're not gonna address it. And what I what I do know and what you said is like grieving really depending on how deep the love is, it never really stops. But you I think the the litmus test is like, is it like negatively affecting your life years after the actual incident? And if it is, then we have to get to some point where you can still feel sad, have those days where you miss a person or you hear their voice, or however, but whatever, however it's manifesting. But you need to get to a point where like the grief isn't preventing you from like seeing what's right in front of you and being present with life because there's all this opportunity in front of you, even if you are experiencing grief in the moment, which is some which is like a a mental thing that I had to come to come to realize before it's almost like my focus was like, or it still is, it was deciding where my presence was, and if I was always focused on grieving, because again, I was like, I need to grieve, I need to grieve, I need to feel these feelings, which was true, uh, I wasn't focused on being grateful for what I had in front of me because I was focused on what was taken from me, if that makes sense. Do you do you find that to be a through line with the conversations you have with different individuals who are grieving, who are different, who are at different points in the grieving process? Like, do you find that like the folks that have let's say feel like they're more, I don't want to use the word removed, I don't know of a better word, but just like they're they're more down the line of the grieving process, that they seem to have more of gratitude for like pres like the present moment? Or am I just completely pulling that from left field somewhere?
SPEAKER_03No, I I can see where you're going with this. And I yes and no. I what I always say is that to your earlier point, grief is so patient. Yeah, it might not force you to feel it right away. You might be able to outrun it a little bit for some amount of time, you know, whatever that coping mechanism is. And to some extent, that can just be a delayed grief response, which is actually really common. It's just your brain's way of saying, we have too much to process. I have to put myself into a level of survival mode where I can basically your brain parses out how much of it you can feel at a time so that you can fully work through what is in front of you. So part of that delayed grief response, I think can be natural. Um and I don't think, as patient as our grief is, it will ensure that it is felt and it is never going to go away. But hopefully, yes, we do get to that place where it evolves where we can still hold it, honor their memory, remember the good times and whatever else we need to remember, but continue to move through life and experience joy again. What I will say is that I think there are two schools of thought. I personally have come out of that initial acute early phase of grief, wanting to find a way to make meaning of the experience. And in that way, I think my grief journey has been quite transformative. I mean, it catalyzed a career change, and this is the most aligned I've ever felt professionally and academically. At the same time, that other school of thought comes in where some grievers do not
Sudden Loss, Estate Duty, And Survival Mode
SPEAKER_03appreciate the sentiment that grief is transformative because it can apply this pressure of I have to make something of this. And it feels to some, they have expressed this sentiment that that feels like it takes away that feeling of how much it sucks, for lack of a better word, how much it hurts. And I think there are different types of losses where it will be, I don't think you can compare loss. And I don't think this is there, it's right to compare in the grief space, but you know, someone who lost their child versus someone who lost a pet, for example, we are not talking about the same magnitude of grief. And that is where I think it gets tricky to say, is there a transformative element of grief? Yes, to some and to others, that can make them feel a lot of pressure to make meaning out of something that has been so deeply hurtful in their life, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it does. And I I think to your point, like, you know, some folks that don't have kids, like sometimes their pet is as like deep of a cut in their world as losing a child, you know, because it is their child in a way or their best friend. So I I agree. I mean, it's it's it's a tough thing to talk about because like you have to talk about it in order to understand it more, but it's hard to understand it because it's so nuanced and subjective and specific to a person's experience. You almost have to understand it again and again and again on all these different levels. And if you work in the grief space, you end up kind of seeing some parallels, but not all, right? Something might totally surprise you. Um, because I've I've been around like incredibly deep, like you know, intellectual, deep feelers too that seem to grieve in a, I don't want to use the term quicker, but just like in a more like in a less emotional way. And then I've and I've seen other people, you know, like like grieve very emotionally and you know, experience emotions for years, and that's probably more how I grieve when I'm close with someone like I'll still have tears come to my eyes when I think of like you know, my grandfather growing up or you know, someone that's passed away in the past. Um, and I think that that directly relates to just like our sort of emotional upbringing or sort of where we come from the emotional part of it. But bringing up like the emotional side of it, how do you because we I spoke we spoke about this from recording last time, like how do you separate, you know, because when we do when we talk about research and you have an idea and you're trying to you have an a hypothesis you're trying to study or some sort of theory you're trying to study, it it's it's almost considered um not part of the scientific method to bring bias and emotion into that, right? Because we're sort of like hoping or think, or based, you know, we we have this like bias thing in our head already. How do you separate that? Like being a grief researcher, how do you separate your own interpersonal grief from being a researcher, or or do you not have to, because it's a totally different line of research than like physics or biology?
SPEAKER_03No, that's a great question. And I think any good research, the goal should be for it to be as non-biased as possible and removed from that author's personal lens and just let the research findings speak for themselves. So in my mind, that's like an academia gold standard, if you will. And what I will say is that I was not able to do this research for years until I got to a place with my own grief that it felt feasible to do this research and not just simply re-traumatizing because earlier in my grief, there's no way I would have been able to focus on a topic such as death and dying, bereavement that was so intertwined to my own lived experience where that would not have been detrimental to me. So it first and foremost, and I didn't have the thought right after my dad died of, oh, let me go bring this into a research setting. No, not at all. This was a very organic and natural evolution, but it took quite literally years. And first and foremost, I just had to feel the grief, sit with the grief in whatever shape it took. And it has changed over the years. And once I got to a place, I think the key qualifier for me was once I got to a place where the grief was something that was no longer my first thought every day. And that, oh my God, my dad is gone. And I got to a level of acceptance where I could understand what had happened and I could find a level of peace with the fact that this had occurred and this was my life journey, then I could start looking at it through a different lens. And the final note I'll add here on this question is that the way I try to incorporate my dad is anytime I can author a dedication or an acknowledgement section on my research, or if I'm giving a To just mention that is the lived experience I have, that this is all born out of. That feels meaningful to me to be able to say and honor my dad, John Michael Bates. That is how I'm inspired to do this work. That is enough for me to feel that he is ingrained. But upholding all of those academic and professional standards of making sure that the findings speak for themselves and I can let the research be the research and not allow the personal influence get in the way of that, but still allow it to be acknowledged as my own lived experience, which I think in some ways can serve as qualitative insights. It's just finding that balance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me, is like just finding the balance within and I feel like so you you've you've been around so much so many different conversations about grief. Would you have like would you have one piece of advice or it could be a couple from all the conversations you've had studying grief that you would give someone who is currently grieving or hasn't grieved something like some some deep loss yet?
SPEAKER_03I'm so uh conscientious of giving advice because everyone's grief journey is going to look so different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But one thing that I find can bring a lot of comfort to grievers is that it will not always feel as debilitating and heartbreaking as it does in the beginning. And I hope that can serve as comfort that that way that grief is manifesting at the beginning, especially if you have lost something or someone that is so profound to you, that that season, even though it doesn't feel like it, it will pass. But on the other side of the same coin, there is an element of you can allow the grief to transform you. That doesn't mean you have to let it be your new career, or you have to start a foundation, or you have to write a book about it, or any of the ways that we can see kind of more we can see grief manifest for people who want to do something with it in that way. But that even if it is something as simple as it gives you a new perspective on life, or it allows you to appreciate the moments you have more deeply than you would have before, that there is a transformative element to it, no matter how heartbreaking and tragic it can be. And just to allow yourself to be open to what that might look like for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that. It's very um uh I I like how careful you are around advising because it I think it is really a my mindful thing that you're doing. So I have two questions for you before I want to give you an opportunity to kind of tell people what what you're doing and and you know how they can get in touch with you and follow along. Um, so first question is if you could tell or do something for your younger self, and that could be at any age, what would it be and why?
SPEAKER_03Oh my goodness, that's such a great question. And I actually I was thinking about this recently. Um I would tell my younger self to not be so stressed out about what's gonna happen or if things are gonna work out as cliche as it sounds. I have found it to ring true in my life that just trust the process and things will work out as they are intended to. And even if what you think you want doesn't happen, then whatever does happen is a great path for you. And so I think it's making the most of how life is presenting itself, what the path is in front of you. Um, so just letting it be what it's gonna be, not being so stressed out, trusting that the universe, God, whatever resonates for any individual has your back. Um, that would be the biggest thing. And that's hard to do. That's really hard to do.
SPEAKER_00No, it is, but it's good advice. It's it's hard to do, but it is good advice to be aware of and to keep in your conscious mind. Okay, second question is what is the legacy, but particularly with like this work you're doing and the work you intend on doing in the future, like that might change, obviously, as you're open to things. Um, what is the legacy you would like to leave behind?
SPEAKER_03Wow, that's such a thoughtful question. Thank you for asking. The legacy I would like to leave behind is, well, in the grief sense, broadly, that more grief-informed systems and structures are built in our lifetime where grief is understood in kind of our public consciousness, that it is a universal, inevitable human experience. It is not something we need to compartmentalize and only talk about or feel at certain moments or places in our life, and that our structures can be built with that in mind. That's kind of in a professional vein. More broadly, the legacy I would love to leave behind is for folks who interact with me to always feel that they were seen and heard by me without judgment. I really, I have no judgment on anyone or anything because I think everything is so nuanced and the way we move through the world is so rooted in our lived experience, kind
Making Meaning, Research Bias, And Closing
SPEAKER_03of taking it back to how all this conversation started. And so a legacy that would be such an honor for me is just for folks to feel like they can be fully themselves and share what's on their heart and mind and that they're not gonna get any judgment from me.
SPEAKER_00Love that. All right, Cece, tell us how can people um follow you? What can they expect to get if they're following your social media, if they're going your website? Um, you know, who are you looking to be contacted by in terms of like work, you know, working queries? Like give us give us the rundown on that and plug yourself a little bit.
SPEAKER_03So Cassidy Carmen or Cassidy Carmen Bates on every platform. Um, my website, Cassidy Carmen, or if you type in Cassidy Carmen Bates, it will all direct to the same place. Um, Cassidy Carmen Bates on Instagram, TikTok. Um, a lot of what I share is, as I call it, my griefy content. It's sharing some grief research. It is sharing my own experience with grief, it is sharing what we can all do in our day-to-day, interpersonally, professionally, in our homes, our families, workplace, whatever, to be more grief-informed. And what I'd like to preface all of that with is that I try and present it in a way that is very grounded and relatable and at times uplifting when appropriate, levity in a respectful boundary. Because I do think we are such a grief and death avoidant culture. We don't want to talk about it. But because we don't want to talk about it, our systems, our policies are lagging behind in this way. And so my goal would be to be part of having that conversation around grief in a way that is engaging and relatable. I don't want folks to feel like, oh my God, we're gonna talk about this and it's gonna be a bummer. I mean, yeah, death and dying really can be a bummer, but we have to be able to talk about it. So I try on my platforms to talk about it in a way where it's approachable. Yeah. Um, the final component of your question for folks who want to reach out, if grievers want to reach out and share their story, I have a platform to help folks publish and share their own grief stories. If organizations are looking to evaluate their bereavement policies, even if they are not in a position to offer paid leave for their employees, I can be contacted by organizations on any of those platforms to evaluate their company's bereavement implementations. And then if there are organizations, conferences, workplaces, whatever that want to have the conversation about grief, I love an in-person or virtual conversation about grief in the workplace, advocacy, all the things. So Cassidy Carmen Bates.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. I love that. Thank you, Cece, so much for joining me today. And um it's been super nice just to get to know you a little bit and about your work. And um, I can't say that I've spoken to anyone that's doing stuff like you're doing. So kudos to you uh for you know making that happen at such a young age, too, and being propelled by your grief to work in the space and hopefully continue to make it better. So thank you for everything you're doing. Um, yeah, and it's been a pleasure chatting with you. I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much, Nico. I appreciate you having me on, and I'm so glad we hit record this time. I know, me too. Thanks for being patient. I appreciate it.